Rubrics/critique during knife judging

[Starkman1]

Fellas,

I've been looking for a powder horn and have been researching makers and come across a fella that had entered one in a show and was commenting on how much he learned from the judges critique.

Question is, does this type of judging occur when makers submit knives for judging at show....aside from JS, MS judging? I can't help but wonder sometimes why certain knives were chosen over others, and do the judges offer any feedback to the makers? This could be a great learning experience especially for the newer makers.

Bob

 

[Kevin Jones]

Very good questions Bob.
Ones I have pondered.

This has the potential to be a very good thread.

 

[lwrhea]

Bob,
Getting your work critiqued is an often untapped resource. You'd be surprised at the makers going for their JS or MS rank and have never taken a critiquing class that are scheduled at Hammer Ins. The ones teaching the classes are either current judges or past judges, so there should be no doubt about the information being accurate.

Other than that, most will not get critiqued unless it's asked for. I know of no critiquing done after show catagories are decided. Lin

 

[dbl-edge]

Bob,

If you want a critique of a knife, find a maker who will give an honest objective one. Not all makers can be objective, but the majority can. Some dealers may also be a good source of an objective critique. Judges at a knife show, however, rarely are objective and generally vote with their personal opinion. Opinions are about likes and dislikes, not objective and logical thoughts. Several years ago at the Las Vegas Classic, the 15 year old daughter of one of the promoters was a judge. It was horrible! I've heard of promoters grabbing someone on the floor to be a judge without knowing if they even had experience with hand made knives. There have been shows where some of us just scratched our heads and wondered what were they thinking when some of the most poorly made knives win the awards.

Here's an example from a show I attended three times a few years ago. It goes something like this:
Best hunter: A forged knife from an ABS member
Best fighter: ABS member
Best bowie: ABS member again, and the fighter and bowie pretty much looked like the same knife.
Best art knife: Yep, another ABS member. May have had some engraving on it to make it "art".
Best of show: What do you think?
Best tactical: Who would remember the token stock remover.

No, this wasn't an ABS sponsored show. It had a fair number of forging knife makers, but many others who did not forge. Most of the others were at least as competent at their craft, and in several cases superior craftsmen. What they did was ask the biggest spokesman for the ABS to be a judge, and at least one guy who collected forged knives, which makes a majority on the judging panel. Generally speaking, unless an ABS maker such as Fuegen enters a knife, those knives were not art. They were finely crafted tools, some with artistic embellishment, but they were not knives that were art. (And please don't think I'm picking on the ABS or that I hate them. It's not true.)

My point is that knife contests at shows are all about the likes of 3 or 5 people, and it's not the place to get a proper critique of your knife. I've been doing this for around 28 years, and this trend toward personal opinions is becoming more and more prevalent.

David Broadwell

 

[Starkman1]

Bob,
Getting your work critiqued is an often untapped resource.... Lin

I believe this to be the case. Thus, judging events (excluding JS, MS) could be prime opportunities to get some feedback. However, the panel of judges should be highly qualified experts. David brings up a good point about the judging. I would think it would be embarrassing and unprofessional for a maker to have someone unqualified to judge his/her work. Otherwise the award essentially means nothing. I'm sure some makers have submitted knives and pondered what was not to like, especially after the time spent on the piece. Both veteran and novice makers always have something to learn or improve. I look at it like grading essays. A student puts in long hours to write a paper, submits it on time, then to get it back with a falling grade with no feedback.....just doesn't seem fair or help the student improve.
Bob

 

[Starkman1]

Bob,

Here's an example from a show I attended three times a few years ago. It goes something like this:
Best hunter: A forged knife from an ABS member
Best fighter: ABS member
Best bowie: ABS member again, and the fighter and bowie pretty much looked like the same knife.
Best art knife: Yep, another ABS member. May have had some engraving on it to make it "art".
Best of show: What do you think?
Best tactical: Who would remember the token stock remover.

David Broadwell

You wouldn't be referring to the 2008 Bladeshow would you?.
Bob

 

[dbl-edge]

You wouldn't be referring to the 2008 Bladeshow would you?.
Bob

No, I was thinking further back. But I do see your point.

And from the post just before, several of us found it insulting to have our work judged by a young teenager. My own daughter was almost the same age and had grown up around me as a maker, but I wouldn't have her judge my work or anyone else's. Even with her knowledge, she didn't have the maturity to do it.

David Broadwell

 

[Les Robertson]

Generally judges are picked because they know what they are looking at. Usually dealers are chosen...not because they know more than makers or collectors do.

They are chosen because of their across the board knowledge of custom knives. Makers are great judges of their style of knives. Collectors are great judges for the types of knives they collect.

I once judged with two VERY WELL KNOWN ABS TYPES (Yes you would be Stunned and I think it would hurt them professionally if I gave their names). When it came to non-forged blades category they just said "Whatever you think Les."

Bob only on rare occasion does a maker who submitted a knife for judging will ask for a critique of their work...rarely. Although to be fair many times the makers don't know who the judges are. I agree that critique could provide invaluable information.

What I like best about judging is the ability to compare side by side in different categories what makers feel is a knife worth entering into a competition.

You would be amazed how quickly the top 3 will jump out at you...no matter the category.

Two recommendations for those who want to enter judging:

1) Enter a knife that fits the category. Example a knife with a 10" blade will not win the "Best Hunter" award.

2) If the knife cannot win on its own...embellishments will not help it. Example at a show a few years ago a maker entered a $45,000 folder (due to all its diamonds) that had up and down play in the blade. As you can imagine it did not win.

David with regards to the "token" stock removal winning the Best Tactical Knife award...if I am judging you should know better than to make a statement like that. BTW, I was a judge at the 2008 Blade Show and will be one at the 2010 Blade Show.

If you like I can give you a few names of the Token Stock Removal winners in the past...I suspect you may actually have heard of them.

I only hope the 15 year old girl doesn't have any pull with the Blade Staff...I'd hate to be replaced as a judge by her again! LOL

To be fair she did on occasion watch her "Hobbyist" knife maker dad make some knives in his shop.

 

[Starkman1]

I don't believe judges should necessarily offer a critique, but perhaps if a rubric were established, a maker would know what criteria his knife was judged upon. It just seems that there needs to be some objective way to judge pieces....I'm not suggesting that they aren't. Perhaps if a rubric were established it could be a great benefit to both makers and collectors when they handle award winning knives and why they were worthy of such an award.

Les, you bring up a good point about having bias among judges..how would you eliminate that, is it possible?

Bob

 

[Les Robertson]

hi Bob,

I don't think there is a bias...there is just a lack of knowledge.

The rubric is primarily what all of us; makers, collectors and dealers look for in a knife.

Grinds, aesthetics, correct operation, sharpness, handle ergonomics, etc.

Most makers know every mistake that is in their knife. Perhaps this is the reason so few ask for a critique...they already know.

I do think a couple of changes with regards to the awards would help.

1) A maker can win no more than two awards.

2) A maker cannot submit a knife that has previously won an award.

3) A knife cannot win Best of Show and Best of whatever category it came out of. We do that at the Blade Show.

I think part of the reason that many makers don't enter is because better known makers enter every knife they bring to the show. There by eliminating any chance (at least in the minds of many makers) that they have a chance to win anything.

4) If you win the same category at the same show two years in a row...you can't submit a knife in that category the 3rd year.

5) Announce who the judges are so the makers know who to go to and ask questions. Note to makers....bring the knife with you when you talk to the judge.

As for bias, that is tough to completely eliminate. I have always liked the idea of a 3 judge panel. This goes a long way to making sure the maker who got the award...should have gotten the award.

 

[P. McKinley]

Several years ago at the Las Vegas Classic, the 15 year old daughter of one of the promoters was a judge. It was horrible! I've heard of promoters grabbing someone on the floor to be a judge without knowing if they even had experience with hand made knives.

Not being a "professional" knifemaker, nor ABS member, nor veteran of even one knife show, and having made only 14 knives as a pure hobbiest, but wanting comment on this particular quote from Dbl Edge, I know most of you will take my words with a grain of salt... or three.

I would wonder if incorporating a rank amateur on a judging panel would be an attempt to include the opinion of the general knife-buying public at large as an exercise in Market Research 101. I imagine it is that demographic that constitutes the majority of clients for those who would enter their wares in such a show. And, if so, an amateur judge might offer valuable insight through their "untrained", "unknowing" eyes.

Even pop-culture reality TV shows such as "So You Think You Can Dance", and "American/Canadian Idol" leave the final judging to the public, because it is they that are the ultimate consumers of the final product( the winner). So, is it not the untrained eye of the amateur that deserves to be at least included in the judging process.

Sorta'.... if Joe Shmoe Six Pack is going to be the buyer, then find out what Joe Shmoe Six Pack likes.

Now granted, Joe Shmoe Six Pack may not know understand the particulars of this or that high-end steel, or the nuances of the various heat treating process, or the value of a certain normalizing technique...... but he at least know what he likes when he sees it, and can likely gleen the rest from a maker's reputation and a bit of simple research.

I do understand how a many a maker of high reputation and long career might find the judging of a 15 yr old pimply-faced nobody to be offensive.... but there may actually be some real world value to his/her opinion.