Rust, Danged Rust

[Bigfattyt]

I would bet the WD attracted dust and lint, and the dust and lint attracted moisture. As has been said, paper towel not so good. WD is great for cleaning, not as much for rust protection.

 

[Rick Marchand]

Personally, I don't get the appeal of windex as a neutralizer.

I know that ammonia is used as a neutralize certain acids. Windex has ammonia so I can see the reasoning.

 

[Broomhead]

Ammonia is used to neutralize corrosive ammo in firearms, such as older military surplus.

 

[AVigil]

There are a few things that work great at keeping the rust away.

One that I use on the blade blanks after each day they are worked on is PB Blaster Garage Door lube http://www.blastergroup.com.au/garage-door-lubricant.html Using it on 1084, 01, A2 has keep rust off the blades in the shop. It is sold at HD and Pepboys

On a completed blade I apply "Divers Silicone" which is used for breathing apparatus and rub the blades down and keeps all rust away.

 

[james terrio]

I know that ammonia is used as a neutralize certain acids. Windex has ammonia so I can see the reasoning.

Windex also has other things like surfactants and dyes that are not helpful to our cause. If you want ammonia for its pH level, buy... guess what? wait for it... ammonia!

Using Windex for its ammonia content (which varies greatly, incidentally) is like using a filthy beer can because it has aluminum, or using scrap plywood because it has paint on it.

This brings to mind the quantum physics discussions often labeled as "Schrödinger's cat". Put a perfectly rust-free knife in a perfectly sealed container (presumably along with a packet of something that absorbs any trace of watcer molecules in the container). Set the container aside for some predetermined period of time. Will the knife rust?

No. You have (theoretically) prevented all the factors that would cause oxidation, therefore rust is impossible. There's no need for the "packet of something". In that case (ho ho!) it wouldn't matter if the blade were made of CTS-XHP or 1084 or wrought iron.

EDIT: having said all that, I will amend my earlier statement to say, "Any steel will rust, unless it's perfectly clean and suspended in a vacuum".

 

[javand]

I know that ammonia is used as a neutralize certain acids. Windex has ammonia so I can see the reasoning.

No I know that the reason people use it is for the ammonia and convenience. I just meant that I don't personally find it effective or convenient. YMMV of course. I tried it only because I saw others doing it, but its just not for me.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I think that the reason is some big names used it in their books and videos. If J.H. recommends it, it must be the very best thing there is...right? Windex isn't unique in this respect.

What advantage index has is :
low odor
lower toxicity and lung damage
surfactants to help clean the blade when scrubbing
surface tension minimizers to help penetrate into cracks and pores
reasonable ability to neutralize the remnant of acids and FC after rinsing
NO RESIDUE ( probably its best attribute).

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Have any of you tried the clear Cerakote? My wife got me some of that instead of the darker stuff I was hoping for (oh well), and although I haven't given it a try yet, I'd imagine it might do okay at preventing rust.

 

[P. McKinley]

WOW!!

Thank you all who have posted thoughts in this thread. I have read all the responses and I'll try to address some of the pertinent points.

Stacy - I've done a thorough inspection of the entire knife and have not found any of these rust spots on the bolster, spine, or the extended tang. There are a couple of spots on the forward edge and show side of the of the "finger guard". What you may be seeing is, indeed, dust or lint from a white cotton cloth I used to clean the blade with. I neglected to properly clean the entire knife(bolsters and handle) prior to taking those photos. Further, the fact that the spots appear light colored is probably a result of my poor photography. It is rust and they are rust colored.

I mentioned in my previous post that my daughter has had a cold and was sneezing in the room where I took the formal photos, so there may be something there. As well, my shop is in the unfinished basement of our 70 year old house. It is not a controlled atmosphere by any stretch and while I have a dehumidifier running 24/7 the humidity and temp can fluctuate dramatically from day to day. So, again there may be something to that.

When I wet-form a sheath, I wrap the entire knife in several carefully applied layers of clear plastic wrap, then seal it with electric tape prior to the forming process. When I'm finished with the forming, the blade is unwrapped immediately and wiped clean with acetone. This sheath was properly cased, formed, and then left to dry without the knife inside for about 40 hours prior to finishing its construction. To me, this would likely not be the cause.... spots only on the one side, etc.

Your final thought - yes, I kept the finished knife in the finished sheath for three(?) days prior to noticing the spots.

As for sanding the blade: I'm going to try and figure out how to secure the knife in a manner that will allow me top re-do the final grit. I'm dreading this process though as the chances of me screwing this up are all to apparent. I'll use a penetrating oil as you suggest. Oh, and I'll not use WD-40 again.
Thank you.... yet again.

.LuD. - I've heard of clove oil("choji oil") being used for blades. I'll look into it.
Thank you.

James -

If you cannot stand small pits, patina, staining etc, 52100 is a very poor choice.

Are you saying that this steel is more prone to this affliction than others? I've seen other VERY accomplished makers use this steel with regularity, even for kitchen knives. In fact I've used 52100 for several kitchen knives without encountering this issue. If this be the case, I would wonder if my troubles are more a product of my process(heat treat temps, soak time, poor hand sanding technique(I highly doubt this one), etc, rather than post build contamination.

If it were my knife, I would clean it gently but thoroughly and send it on.

Sorry, maybe it just me, but I can't do that. Its not right. Just the thought that this may reappear even after remedial cleaning and polishing has me so disgusted that I'm likely not going to send this one out. I'll probably just void the agreement and make another one at a drastically lower price. At least I'll have a clear conscience.

I'll be back......

Thanks again everyone. I GREATLY appreciate all the help.

Peter

 

[james terrio]

Peter, let me clarify...

52100 is an excellent steel, but not one I would choose for corrosion resistance. It simply doesn't have enough chrome in it. I can't say for certain, but nothing you've mentioned about your HT regimen seems like it would cause any problems.

When I said clean it up and send it on, I based that on my guess that what we're seeing in those pics isn't actual rust. I could of course be wrong, and like you I wouldn't ever knowingly send an inferior or rusty blade to a client.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Windex itself is not a neutralizer. The ammonia in Windex is the alkali.
A solution of water and household ammonia works better because you can add more ammonia.