Rusting blade

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Apr 17, 2011
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Hey yall so I've just finished a new bowie made from a large file but it rusts and starts to pit within a week of polishing. Is there amcompound I can use to keep this from happening? Any help is appreciated
Thanks,
Sterling
 
Please ask questions like this in Shop Talk rather than in Custom & Handmade, which is for discussing finished knives.
 
A light application of any machine oil will protect the steel (3-in1 oil, cutting fluid, even new motor oil would work). What kind of honing oil do you use? Chances are that would work too. Nev-R-Dull polishing pads clean well and leave a light protective film also. Food-grade unscented mineral oil is nice because it won't make you sick if you use the knife to cut food (duh). Renaissance wax works well, and I bet regular old Turtle wax for your car would protect the steel just fine (neither is food-safe). Some folks use sprays like Pam (food-safe, but it may get rancid over time) or Armor-All.

Basically anything that puts a thin film on the steel will help keep moisture and oxygen off it. The ones with silicon or petroluem oils may cause yucky problems inside a leather sheath so keep that in mind too.

If you're looking for long-term storage (several weeks) apply the oil and wrap the blade snugly in Saran Wrap. Then you can even leave it in a leather sheath if you want. (that's how I ship finished knives)
 
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Rust and pitting in one week? You are doing something very wrong!

I have carbon steel knives that have never rusted, some 30-50 years old. But they have turned a nice dark color.
 
Yes, I'm a little surprised about that, too. I've seen hand sanded lades rust very quickly if not oiled right away, but rust and pitting a week later is excessive. Maybe it's in a corrosive environment, close to salt water or something? It definitely does not sound like a knife with a buffed finish. If it is, I'm even more astounded.

Camellia oil is really good. It is traditional Japanese and can be bought as "sword oil" from places online. It's very light, lasts well, does not gum up.
 
Hey yall so I've just finished a new bowie made from a large file but it rusts and starts to pit within a week of polishing. Is there amcompound I can use to keep this from happening? Any help is appreciated
Thanks,
Sterling

Here's something you might consider: If you Force a patina on the blade, it offers a degree of protection against rust. Not foolproof, but it helps.

Ferric oxide is basically red rust. It doesn't offer any protection against further oxidation and further rusting.

Ferrous oxide is another state of oxidized iron, but it has a black color, and that's the grayish patina you get when you force a patina on iron or steel. I'm not sure how it works, but a layer of ferrous oxide (patina) forms when iron oxidizes in the presence of acid -- I think.

Anyway, this patina seems to offer a layer of protection in itself, and it also seems to hold onto oil when you oil the blade.

The most recent time I did this, I just dropped a finished blade into a container of vinegar for 30-40 minutes. If you're talking about a finished knife that has the handle on it and everything, you might want to try suspending the knife blade-tip down into the vinegar, avoiding putting the handle down into the liquid.

Another option is to wrap paper towels tightly around the blade and then you can soak the paper towels with vinegar or lemon juice, but in my experience this is more likely to result in a mottled, uneven patina...but you might like that look.
 
Thanks everyone for the help I'm new to this site and didn't know I was in the wrong forum for questions I'll try all these things with future knives as I have not been doing this for but a few months.
 
You can put renaissance wax on it. It's not a permanent treatment, but it may be what you need for this particular piece. Do you have pictures of the pitting it's getting? 1 week is exceptionally fast for pitting. I've only seen pitting that fast when a knife was left with saltwater on it.
 
I posted a long explanation this morning,....and a power disruption dumped it...D@%n! Anyway:

There are several things involved in rust. They are material, surface condition, environment, chemistry, protection for the preceding.

Material -A file isn't made to be a knife blade. The steel is made to allow many fine grooves to be stamped into it. The resulting structure will have many more pores and micro-grooves in the steel than a piece of HRA 1095. After you grind the surface flat, the ghost of these grooves will still be there. Forging the file will make it even worse. Also, while it was a file, the grooves allowed hygroscopic things, like iron bits and wood dust, to collect and attract moisture. This created tiny pits that penetrate deep into the steel. When you forge or grind the file, you may close up these, or smear the surface over them, but they are still there waiting to become a nice red spot.

Surface - This is where people don't realize that even at 400 grit, the surface is covered with millions of tiny scratches. Often there are deeper scratches and pits that are disguised by the matte finish of 400 grit. Sanding to a smooth and scratch free surface will reduce the places where moisture can collect and rust will form. A smooth surface won't repair a bad piece of steel, but it eliminates as much as it can.

Environment - Merely setting the blade down after forging or grinding will assure that it will be right there when you return....and it will almost guarantee it will be rusted by morning.
Wiping the blade off with a rag will only slightly help, as the pits and scratches are going to hold on to the moisture. Washing the blade with dish soap and drying well in a warm place will prevent the blade rusting as you watch. A light coat of oil is a good shop procedure when working on a blade past the rough shaping stages.
Once the blade is finished, the tiny scratches and pits can still provide a home for mosture...or get filled with things that attract moisture.

Chemistry - We all know that it takes iron and water to form rust. However, there is a lot more involved. Depending on the amount of oxygen available ,the process will be slower or faster. Heat is another factor.Finally, Ph is a huge factor. If you dunk your blades in the same tub you quench in, and rinse the FC off in, and spit/pee/whatever in, chances are good the Ph is lower than 7. The warm blade will suck this acidic water into the pores and set up for rust pits to start digging their way to the center of the blade. Using chemicals on the blade, like FC, bluing chemicals,vinegar, mustard, etc. will also add a lot of acidity to the blade. Rinsing the blade off well will only partly help here.

Preventing the above;
Use a good grade of steel that has not had a rough life in the past. If you are the first person to alter the steel, the chances of getting a better blade will be greater. Avoid any material that was exposed to bending stress, deeply grooved, or badly rusted. There will be micro-spiderwebs going through these steels, as well as millions of micro-pits.

Sand to a very fine surface and then sand downward to a matte finish if you don't want the finer finish. Taking the blade to 1000-2000 grit will greatly reduce rusting and pits. Avoid trying to buff out deep scratches instead of sanding them out . Buffing will close up the pits, but won't get rid of them. They WILL come back to haunt you.

Is your shop humid? Do you set the blade down on the anvil...right over the slack tub? Do you even carefully dry it off? Attending to these, or taking the blade in the house will slow down overnight rusting.

Dump the slack tub often, and toss in a tablespoon of baking soda or washing soda. Put a bit of soda in your dunk can when grinding. This will change the Ph and really slow down rust.

When done with etching or other treatments, neutralize the blade well with ammonia ( Windex) , or a suitable agent for the chemical used. Then wash it well with dish soap. Next, boil it for twenty minutes. This will get all the salts and chemicals out of the blade surface. Dry the hot blade quickly, and the warmth will dry the pores. After five minutes oil with a good grade blade oil, wipe off, and lightly re-oil. Renaissance wax is the king for blade protection as the silicones in it will penetrate the blade and will not evaporate . When storing a blade, clean it well, paying attention to places where moisture can hide. Dry it well for an hour, and then oil/wax it well. Do not store a knife in the sheath, as the chemicals in the leather can rust/pit the blade. It stands to reason to store a knife in a cool dry place. Tackle boxes and car trunks are not two of these places.
One really bad habit is to give a damascus blade "a quick etch" while grinding, to see the pattern, and then just rinsing it off. If you do an etch, fully neutralize the blade before continuing..... or the "quick etch" may return as "slow and unstoppable rust".

Final tip - Use a loupe or magnifier hood to closely examine the blade surface. Use angular light, as it will accentuate the scratches and pits. Keep sanding until they are gone. When people say/ask, " Boy, Bruce Bump's ( or pick any major maker) knives really look great. How does he get the steel to look so good?".......It is because he sands until all scratches and pits are gone. If they won't go away, he probably makes another blade.
 
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Thank you for that Stacy. And to write it up twice deserves a second thank you. I have had that happen before, and decided to forget about the post. Glad you did not.
 
A lot of great information here, but I fear we may be overwhelming the OP with details. Details that although valid and fascinating, may or may not be relevant to his situation.

The first questions we all should have asked are,

What exactly do you mean by "rust/pitting?" and "What kind of steel are you dealing with?"

I've seen annealed O1 blossom orange within moments of cooling in the slack bucket while grinding (it was "flash" rust that I could wipe off with one pass on the belt), and I've checked hourly to see if very clean, highly polished, fully-HT'ed CPM-154 corroded in an open bath of household vinegar left in the hot summer sun. (it takes a damn long time and doesn't "pit" in the way I think of pitting for days)

My only point is, there are many levels of "rust".
 
I think we probably know more about what kind of steel he's dealing with than he does, since he said it was a large file. Pictures of the pitting would be great to know the degree of damage.
 
I think we probably know more about what kind of steel he's dealing with than he does, since he said it was a large file. Pictures of the pitting would be great to know the degree of damage.

Agreed. One man's rust is another man's patina, hopefully the OP will clarify what he means.

On the other hand, I have several large files made of steel I'd bet against 1095 or even O1 any day of the week, so I figured it was worth asking ;)
 
To clarify my statement on the "ghosts" of past stress and such on a piece of re-used steel.

When steel is bent or impacted, micro-fractures can form deep withing the metal. These become permanent, and can't be removed. Stress and poor grain structure can be repaired, but fractures are there until the steel is melted down and re-cast. Also, things like the stamping of the file grooves causes both these disruptions as well as allowing rust and pits to form in the bottom of the grooves. This also creates microscopic dendrites of rust and corrosion in the steel. As many have found when re-using a truck spring, just because it looks shiny and smooth when you grind off the old surface doesn't mean the old stress cracks and corrosion won't come back as cracks....or new rust places. I know files are popular, and I have made knives from them myself....but there is nothing - no file - no truck spring - no "Grandpa's Plow Steel" that will make a better knife than a new bar of steel from a modern factory. If it is a bar of steel especially made to make knives, like Cru-forge V or Aldo's 1084FG, that is even better.

Now, lets think of a bar of steel as if it was damascus. If we stamp a row of grooves in the steel, we disrupt the steel ( and the layers of the damascus) deeply, not just to the depth of the groove.This is what I meant by the "ghosts". On damascus, this is how it gets its pattern.The steel is stamped hot or the grooves are ground/cut in cold, - but if you stamped them in cold, the billet may be ruined. On a bar of mono-steel, the same disruption can occur. Files aren't stamped with any thought to the inner changes, they just want the rough exterior. If it makes a micro-crack, that won't affect the file much at all...but will make a really bad knife blade.
 
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