RVW: Hatin T.E.C. TEC Fighter

[Chiro75]

Guys, I just finished a long review of the TEC Fighter by Chris Hatin. Excellent knife, but there were a few problems with it (they have been corrected by better manufacturing processes apparently). Find the review in the left hand frame on my website (see my sig below) or go to it directly at:
http://www.geocities.com/chiro75/hatinrvw.html

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My Custom Kydex Sheath page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/frames.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
On Two Wheels
agocs_s@dd.palmer.edu
Madpoet (Mel Sorg, Jr.) Tribute page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/madpoet/main.html

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Chiro, I was surprised to see that the tip bent after stabbing a pince 2x4 and that there was edge deformation after about 50 chops. How hard is the D2 and is Chris doing a cryo treat on it? How thick is the edge behind the bevel and at what angle is the edge ground at?

From your review :

I flexed the edge on a brass rod
and it neither chipped nor bent, a sign of a good heat treat.

The standard brass rod test is to press hard enough so that the edge does bend and then move it along the rod. The edge should return to true and not chip out or stay deformed.

Two tests I did not conduct were soaking the sheath and seeing if the liner holds water and could create a corrosion problem and also getting the knife gritty and resheathing it to see if the grit particles would be held by the liner and end up scratching the knife.

These are the exact reasons why after some initial questions a few years ago I stopped looking for a soft lined Kydex sheath. To be blunt, you cannot always clean the blade in the field before resheathing. Most times you can do a quick wipe, but that will not do anything to wood sap and even that isn't always possible. The only solution I saw was to have a sheath that could be broken down and the liner easily replaced.

-Cliff

 

[Summerland]

Nice review, Chiro! And a very attractive knife, Chris.

btw, I love that picture of your desk with knifes scattered about--that's my idea of the ideal home furnishing.

 

[Chiro75]

Cliff, I can't answer all your questions, but I can answer some...

*Chris says the knife is Rc60, and there was no mention of cryo, so I assume it was a simple heat treat.

*Also, the tip didn't really bend. The best way I can describe it is that the tip sort of developed a tiny burr. You could scrape your fingernail with it and feel it if you ran your thumb over it at just the right angle. I assume this was from the force of the impact into the wood, rather than from the prying. LIterally two swipes with the stone removed the burr and the tip was good as new.

* I do not have the info about edge angle or thickness behind the edge. The knife is in the mail, so even with instructions I would not be able to measure these. Rest assured, I figured the knife would cut like crap due to the very small secondary bevel and seemingly thick v-grind, but the exact opposite was true. It performed very well.

* As far as the edge deforming with 50 chops, it was like the edge developed a bit of roughness. I wouldn't say "chip" or "bend", though. Again, literally a few passes on the stone and it was perfect. I was also striking the wood at varius angles, into knots, etc, with no care about how or where the knife was hitting!

*I guess I performed the brass rod test incorrectly, then. The way I understood it is that you flex the edge on the rod, using light at an angle to see the edge bend, then release the pressure. If the edge chips or before it bends or if the bend stays, then the heat treat may be a little off. Chris' knife edge bent, then returned to true. (sorry I'm not using the quote feature, but I am almost late to a class and I am hurrying!).

* As far as the sheath goes, I guess we have two differing opinions. Here's what I'll say as an experienced sheathmaker myself:

First, if you are willing to use a knife hard in the field, as well as resheath it full of crud, then I would assume you could care less how many scratches appear on the blade. All of my sheaths were easily either completetely disassembled or at least one entire side could be popped open for very thorough cleaning. If you are going to resheath in that manner, like I said in the review, I would go with an unlined sheath because the benefits of the lining are lost on you anyway! Chris makes lined and unlined sheaths. Since I do not use my knives hard in everyday situations, I would benefit from the lined sheath. I thought the design and execution were excellent on Chris' part. If you, Cliff, were going to order a sheath from me, for example, I would use a one-piece design with screws only to hold everything together. I would also modify my belt clip so you wouldn't be able to tear it off. If you want to be able to take a sheath apart, it HAS to be made with screws and not rivets, eyelets, etc. This was one of the main things that separates my sheaths from other makers'. Chris' QT sheath design is assume, but ONLY if: a) Quiet draw is a necessity, b)The knife and sheath will be dry most of the time, and c) the knife will be resheated relatively clean most of the time. If you don't meet these variables then that sheath wouldn't interest you to begin with, just as you stated.



------------------
My Custom Kydex Sheath page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/frames.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
On Two Wheels
agocs_s@dd.palmer.edu
Madpoet (Mel Sorg, Jr.) Tribute page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/madpoet/main.html

 

[Chiro75]

Summerland, those are all kit knives. I think all the ones you see there are a collaboration that Neil Blackwood helped me with. Hopefully I can bring them all for show and tell at Badger show! We'll see! One of my friends who is a gun freak loves coming over because there are invariably knives scattered all over the place! This does get me into trouble, though. I've lost my Simonich Cetan Tanto kit knife and for the life of me can't find it. Doh!

------------------
My Custom Kydex Sheath page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/frames.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
On Two Wheels
agocs_s@dd.palmer.edu
Madpoet (Mel Sorg, Jr.) Tribute page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/madpoet/main.html

 

[Chris Hatin]

Chiro,

Let me help you out. The D2 is Sub-zero quenched at -120 f.degrees. It is also triple tempered. I am looking into -300 deg. queches. All my blades are individually tested and rated at 60 Rc.

The grind angle is 8 deg. on the v-ground 3/16" blades. This particular knife had more of a secondary bevel than more recent models, which are truly v-ground, along with the the other improvements/modifications you noted.

The sheaths are lined for several reasons.

1. Kydex/Concealex scratches blades.

2. The sheath with lining is much more quiet than an un-lined sheath.

3. My blades are collected and used. I am aware of several of my blades that wont see any use, and some are used hard. If a new knife gets scratched, the customer who wants to show off his pretty $300 blade is disappointed, and I dont want that.

As Chiro mentioned, I make the sheaths lined or unlined. Cliff asked me about water and the lining some months ago, and I told him that the lining will come off when wet, but it leaves behind a very thin sueade-like material that still protects the blade. I have been using a model like this for a few months with no problem whatsoever. I do wipe my blade off before sheathing. I soaked the sheath deliberately to remove the fuzz. You can't sheath a crudded blade into leather without expecting some problems, so I'm pretty happy with the linings performance.

Hope that answers Cliff's questions.

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Chris Hatin

http://www.hatintec.com

"Are you ready for the defendant, Judge?"
"Yup. Bring the guilty bastard in."

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Chiro75 :

I was also striking the wood at varius angles, into knots, etc, with no care about how or where the knife was hitting!

Regardless, pine is a very soft wood and 50 hits is a fairly small amount. Of course it is hard to judge without knowing the exact edge profile but that seems a low stress level to me to cause significant blunting let alone what you describe in the review :

noticeable deformation in the area from the tip of the knife about where the curve straightens out and forms the main edge
of the blade

Back to sheaths :

if you are willing to use a knife hard in the field, as well as resheath it full of crud, then I would assume you could care less how many scratches appear on the blade.

Only the first statement is necessary. I have never met anyone yet who took cleaning products along with him. You can remove blood and other similar crud from your blades but sap and such will not come off without an abrasive pad and a cleaner. I usually use comet and a worn Scotchbrite pad. And no, I don't care about scratches on my blades.

the benefits of the lining are lost on you anyway

I became interested in linings mainly as a way to reduce corrosion.

I would use a one-piece design with screws only to hold everything together

I would very much like that. Cleaning out Kydex sheaths can be difficult, easier than leather though.

I would also modify my belt clip so you wouldn't be able to tear it off.

That would be useful.

Chris :

The grind angle is 8 deg. on the v-ground 3/16" blades. This particular knife had more of a secondary bevel

What was the angle of the edge bevel and how thick was the blade right behind it?

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 03-09-2000).]

 

[Chiro75]

Cliff, I had trouble quoting from your text, so apologies again...:

What I meant by "noticeable deformation..." was that the impacts were obviously being taken by the curved area of the edge. I guess I can't even tell you for sure that the wood is pine, although I am pretty sure it was. By "noticeable" I meant that there was some wear that was noticeable. I did not mean "noticeable" as opposed to "slight" or something else like that. Like I said, a couple passes on a stone and the edge was good as new. To put it into perspective, I own...approximately 14 knives in D-2 and the TEC Fighter did as well, if not better, than the others in every test. The amount of wear that I saw on the edge after my tests was expected, and it cleaned up a lot easier than the D-2 knives I have that are hardened at 62. YOu may expect more from the knife, but then again the difference may be due to my description of the events and not those of the knife's performance. Was it 50 chops exactly? Probably not. It could've been closer to 75 but I wans't counting, so I preferred to lowball the estimate rather than exagerrating. It was between 50 and 75 but I lost count because I was having too much fun! Also, I had the wood clamped in my bench vise. There is a possibility I could've overcut and landed the edge slightly on the vise and not even have realized it (not a full chop, but it could've kissed the edge a bit and not felt different than hitting the wood). There are a lot of possibilities but in my OPINION, which is based on 14 or fifteen knives' worth of subjective data, the TEC Fighter performed exactly as I would have expected it to.

On to the sheath comments...
I don't expect people to CLEAN the knife in the field, but there is a difference between resheathing a knife packed with mud and debris and wiping the blade on something to get most of it off. I have NEVER seen anyone pack a bunch of mud and guts into the sheath just because they were too lazy to at least wipe the majority of the crap off first! I agree that a knife seeing hard field use will end up with stuff on it that cannot be cleaned off until you get to camp or home. That's exactly why I recommend that for hard field use, then, one should not expect a sheath to last forever, and an lined sheath may not be the best choice. I did not test the sheath as much as I could've, though, so I can't say how the QT sheath handles grit and that sort of thing. Hard-use field knives will outlast sheaths that are seeing hard use. They are easy to replace, it is relatively cheap to replace them, and as such that should be kept in mind. Most people will not purposefully abuse a sheath, though, and realistically I would think that the lined sheath would perform pretty well in the field with use as you describe it. In those cases, however, a scratched blade is no big deal, so the lining is an afterthought. I thought the lined sheath was awesome, and I would love it on a neck knife or other personal carry, everyday-type fixed blade.

I don't think Chris sells his lining as a corrosion reduction tool, so that's a moot point in terms of Chris' knives. It would be cool to have instant corrosion protection simply by resheating a knife, though. That would also necessitate cleaning the knife before resheathing, however, because the corrosion results from the reaction between the substance and the metal. The lining would be contacting the outer layer of the substance, so unless the layer of corrosive material was very thin or could be soaked up or something a lining would never do what you want it to.

The key to cleaning a Kydex sheath is to have it be able to prop open or be totally taken apart. Rivets and eyelets do not allow this. A steady stream of water works okay, but nothing compares to the cleaning a sheath can get if it can be opened up and a brush could be used. Too bad I am not in the business of making sheaths anymore, Cliff!

Quoting myself:
"I would also modify my belt clip so you wouldn't be able to tear it off"
Keyword there is YOU, Cliff!

I have sold dozens of sheaths and no one has torn a clip off yet. If there were a first, you'd probably be him. Unfortunately I haven't seen too many of other makers' Kydex sheaths, so maybe mine were just in a league of their own!

------------------
My Custom Kydex Sheath page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/frames.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
On Two Wheels
agocs_s@dd.palmer.edu
Madpoet (Mel Sorg, Jr.) Tribute page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/madpoet/main.html

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Chiro :

I guess I can't even tell you for sure that the wood is pine, although I am pretty sure it was.

Bite it. You can tell most woods apart easily this way. You need to have known stock to calibrate against of course.

I don't think Chris sells his lining as a corrosion reduction tool, so that's a moot point in terms of Chris' knives.

At the time I was thinking of using leather lining to hold oil or some other protectant. The problem is though that Kydex will hold the leather too tightly to the blade.

Unfortunately I haven't seen too many of other makers' Kydex sheaths, so maybe mine were just in a league of their own!

If you ever get back to it drop me an email.

-Cliff