S&M, Queen traditional knives: opinions please.

I've had 6 late model Schatt & Morgans and sold every one of them. The fit and finish is not even as good as late model Case knives, no less GEC (I only have 2 GEC's, a saddlehorn is extraordinarily well finished, #57 is respectable, but nothing outstaning). I keep buying S&M's because they look good in pictures, and knife enthusiasts seem to like them ... but there are always fit & finish issues - 100% of the time in my experience. I've had a model 48 whittler, railsplitter stockman, mini toothpick, executive jack, Queen buffalo horn medium frame sleeveboard, medium frame zebrawood gunstock.

- unacceptable space/gap between the brass lining and spring on the jack.
- sloppy blade wobble on the gunstock and railsplitter
- awful off center blade when closed on the jack & toothpick - not even close to being centered in the bed - how can they release asingle blade knife for retail sale like that - it's so obviously off center ?!?!
- very weak snap on the gunstock, sleeveboard and railsplitter
- ridiculously large gap where the bone meet bolster in the 48
- the round shield inlay on the sleeveboard and gunstock was poorly cut - large gap with alot of filler ... how hard is it to cut a simple round hole for a shield !??!?

Am I expecting too much ? You can go to Home Depot & buy a low end Case trapper than will be far better in every respect than any of the S & M's I've owned that cost 2-3x as much.

I have absolutely had it with S&M - never again.

PS - I just got a late model Case single blade saddlehorn in green apple. Knife is dead perfect - blade has a nicely cut swedge grind, beds perfectly centered, rock solid half stop, bone sides are piston fit to the bolsters, snaps like a gator. This exceeds what I expect from a late model USA made mid-priced knife. S&M - not even close EVERY TIME in my experience.

OK, rant over ...
 
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i have a whole bunch of em, and they have mostly been decent. no complaints. the ones i did complain about, ive modified myself to make carry-able and have edced them. try to search for those threads. currently have a bunch up in the for sale section. not because they were bad, but im trimming down the collection a bit and focusing more on other hobbies.
 
Jake, I always enjoy our disagreements and hold you in the highest regard. Ed, I love your posts on your GECs. Whenever I think about my experiences with using my GECs your stories pop into my mind and I second guess myself. I carried one GEC knife or another every day for over two years. I'm not saying that they can't be used or that they're bade knives. They just don't hold up as well as a Queen in my opinion. They do have other redeeming qualities, which are well documented on these forums.

I agree that the way the different knives are used says more about those buying them than the knives themselves. However, a company's reputation oftentimes says more about the customers than the product, so I think that it's worth mentioning that many GECs are said to be excellent knives when in fact they've never been tested by actually cutting something. This isn't an attack or indictment. We all collect for different reasons and have different criteria for our knives and I think that's great. Most times my favorite knife is the last one that I received. I don't find out how good it actually is until I've put it through it's paces. I don't consider a knife good or bad until I've had to sharpen it at least twice, once when I get it and again once it's been used enough to dull.

As for my GECs not holding up, again I think that I have different standards than many here. I don't have a rotation that I work through or different knives that I carry based on what I think my uses are going to be that day. I carry one knife every day until it fails me or until I find something that I think will suit my needs better. I carried my 23 for over a year straight. It performed many tasks very well. However, there came a day when I was carving on a piece of oak to whittle it down to a suitable size to use as a handle for a new ferro rod. I took a round chunk of oak that was about 3 inches across down to about 1 inch across. It was maybe 10 minutes of whittling with some breaks mixed in to talk to the kiddos. I noticed that the blade was catching here and there and when I examined the edge it had rolled in two or three spots. This was a clear piece of wood with no knots. Oak is a hard wood, and I get that. I feel that a knife with the size and heft of a 23 should be able to handle it. I've performed similar tasks with my Queen Ruple trapper and it came away with no problems at all. A quick stropping when I was done was all it took to bring the edge back to new.

The day that my 23 rolled over on me was the first day in a long time that I left the house without any GEC in my pocket. It was replaced by that same Ruple trapper. They are very similar in many ways, but much different in many other ways. In the end the Ruple didn't hold up because I bought the buffalo horn version and the horn didn't hold up well. I plan on having it rehandled in ebony at some point, at which time I think it'll make an excellent hard use slipjoint.

After the last run of 21s came out I was able to pick one up in Osage Orange. I'm a fan of sodbusters, and have read here that the Farm & Field line make for good hard use knives. It really is a beautiful knife, and I got some good use out of it. Then, I had a chance to put it to the test. I had about 20 boxes that had built up in my garage that needed to be broken down to go in the recycling. I had just gotten home from a scout meeting and had my 21 in my pocket. I got to work cutting down the boxes. Some were thicker, and some were pretty flimsy Amazon boxes. After about 5 boxes or so I noticed that it was getting harder to slice the cardboard. By the time I got through 10 boxes the cardboard was starting to tear instead of being cut. By the time I got through 15 boxes I gave up and went in. The blade sharpened up really quickly and really nicely, but by that point my coat and shoes were off and I didn't want to go back out to finish the job. If I had had a Queen in my pocket that night I could have gone through all 20 boxes and wouldn't have had any sharpening to do at all.

That being said, GEC does a better job of keeping their transitions tight. There are almost zero gaps on any of the GECs that I've owned. The blades aren't always straight, but they're almost always pretty well centered. The only models I have had with blade rub had blades that shared a spring such as a stockman or whittler. Queens have some that are good and some that aren't as good in these aspects. None of these aspects affect how well a knife performs. Therefore, if I need a knife to cut I'll buy a Queen. If I need a knife to look good in a picture, I'll order a GEC. I carry a pocket knife because it's more convenient to have a knife in my pocket than to have to go find one when I need something cut. If I have to stop what I'm doing to go sharpen the knife halfway through the job all of a sudden it's not so convenient and I just carried it around all day for no reason.

I have my 23 sitting on my desk right now. When I get the chance I'm going to put a convex edge on the drop point blade and keep the flat grind edge on the spay blade. I'm thinking that if I use the drop point for heavier uses the convex might hold up better and I'll still have the spay for when I want a great slicer. I've had some luck with this setup on a Queen Cattle King in 1095. I put a convex edge on the spay blade of that knife and it's held up much better for heavier uses. Only time will tell, and my opinion might change based on this experiment. However, the fact will still remain that Queen's D2 will hold up better without having to be convexed.
 
It's good to hear that there were no failures of construction or mechanics. Grinds and materials are also important. I do hold myself responsible for the edges since I put them on myself. And sometimes different edges are desirable for different tasks. Even for a single task, sometimes different angles are best suited for cutting slightly different materials. Using wood working tools as an example: When planing wood with a block plane, the blade might be sharpened to 35 degrees. With a difficult grain, you might use an edge that's steeper. Pocket knives are used for a much wider variety of work. Your experience with wood carving reminds me of old advertisements from Maher & Grosh. Some knives were advertised as suitable for cutting wood. Some knives were advertising as having thin blades not suitable for wood. I think both GEC and Queen make knives that fit both of those categories. Both types have their uses. One of the many reasons that I enjoy knives with two or three blades is that I can put a different edge on each blade if it suits me. Let us know how changing the edge works for you.

Both GEC and Queen use Buffalo horn and 1095 as well as other materials. Queen definitely uses a greater variety of steels. I know GEC has used O1 in the past... off the top of my head, I'm not sure if they still do... it was used on their version of the "sodbuster". With a good grind, D2 can be a very nice steel for knives. My own experience is that there's a lot of variation in Queen's grinds. Even for just the sowbelly pattern, there is a tremendous amount of variation from super thin to thick and sometimes uneven... but that experience is based on a couple decades worth of knives rather than the most recent knives from Queen. My experience with their recent knives is limited.

I was worried there was a mechanical or structural failure. Unfortunately those things do happen. And knives with old fashioned peened pin construction will sometimes loosen up with use. I suspect most of us have experienced it. I've had it happen with knives from every manufacturer. Some patterns and/or runs seem more susceptible than others.
 
The question of Queen et al. knives comes up regularly and it's not surprising as there's no definitive answer. What we certainly can see is a wide spectrum of experiences and this is both instructive and confusing. As I've written in similar threads, the Queen D2 knives I have from the early part of this century are fantastic in build quality and the steel, when sharpened(not easy if it arrives blunt...) is wonderful for a pocket knife. As Jeff and Cory wrote, they can give exceptional durability, plus they look and handle attractively.

The Schatt knives I have are compromised in quality and I regret to say that the recent Queen knives I've used since the Daniels take-over have not met expectations frankly. I don't care for their appearance, many sporting this gross oversized Keystone shield and some pretty naff blade etchings. Some actually seem to be parts knives using up old blade stock, that can be OK of course. One knife I had last year was simply appalling in every way possible, the blade being thin tinny stainless with poor orange peel buffing. Of course, there are decent contemporary Queens but the buyer needs to be able to inspect them I'd say and for me as a European, that's not possible. One thing everybody agrees on, when Queen puts out a decent knife it's a knife to be prized, and we are all hoping to see a distinct improvement in consistency so that the chance factor may be greatly reduced.
 
There was no mechanical failure. I've never experienced that with any of my slipjoints. I hear you about blade grinds. That's why I go for the bigger, beefier patterns. In my mind the 21 and 23 should have grinds that are suitable for these tasks. I don't consider either of these uses heavy duty, more medium duty. Both of these knives are touted as being heavy duty. Why carry a knife that large and heavy if it can't handle heavy duty use?

Just about all of my knives get a 20 dps edge. i could try a 25 on my GECs, but then I'm losing the slicing ability and if I'm compromising that I might as well go with the convex, right? That's an honest question, I'm still learning here. My Queens perform well with the 20 dps edge, as do my fixed blades and modern knives.

To be honest, I'd prefer that the knife loosen up than lose it's edge before the job is done. I consider tightening up a joint part of maintenance on a slipjoint. I haven't yet carried one for any decent amount of time without it loosening up to some degree. In my experience, edge holding is a major factor in the quality of a knife to the public at large. In fact, to a non-knife person I think that edge holding is the most important indicator of quality. For this reason, I recommend Queens to people much more often that GECs. Not because of my personal preferences, but because I think that your average person is going to be much happier with a Queen in their pocket than a GEC.

I think that both companies have their strong spots and places where they could improve. For me, GEC is at their best when they are making slender, elegant knives with slender, elegant blades. This last run of 48s is a perfect example, as are the 82 and 38 previews that we've seen. If you only use your knife for light duty, I think that GEC makes a better product to fill that need. I prefer 1095 in a small, watch pocket knife. I've been carrying a mini-trapper in 1095 pretty regularly for several months and it's done a fantastic job for the role it plays. I interpreted the initial post as a recommendation for a knife that'll be used for general duty, probably as the only knife being carried for a period of time. I don't think that GECs are great in this role for most people I know. My mini-trapper has done so well because I always have a fixed blade and usually a larger folder to handle the jobs that it can't. if it was my only knife I'd have to be much more careful about what I chose to cut, and I don't think that that's an indication of a good knife. I don't think that most people want to worry about their knife when faced with a cutting chore.

As for their recent quality, I spoke to Ken and Courtney yesterday at a knife show. They tell me that quality has been kicked up a notch since they hired a new master cutler. They admitted that there were some issues that they took a while to recognize. The examples that they had at the show were pretty good for the most part, with their regular run Queens and Ruple collabs being the best of the bunch as I've come to expect. I don't know if those knives were made before or after the change or if they cherry pick good examples to bring to shows, so I can't really say if things have changed as we've all been hoping or not. I don't think we'll really know for another year or so when we see more of the new knives out in the wild.
 
I'm pretty sure i would own many more queen manufactured knives if i could handle them in a store before purchasing. But too many times have i experienced the order/exchange/return process to get something satisfactory.
 
jrawk said:
I'm pretty sure i would own many more queen manufactured knives if i could handle them in a store before purchasing. But too many times have i experienced the order/exchange/return process to get something satisfactory.
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Me too!
 
Modoc ED said:
Who says GEC knives can't be worked hard? These three no longer belong to me but I'm sure the new owner won't mind me showing them.

Here they are new in the first picture and then after heavy use in the second picture.





And here are two more pictures of the same knives.

MKzEZRj.jpg


7DAknU4.jpg


You can work a GEC knife hard all day long - it's just a matter of how much you're willing to put your shiny, pristine, expensive knives through.

As to the question asked in this thread's title - Queen/S&M put out some very decent knives until Bill Howard bled off the talented cutlers and took them to GEC with him. Since about 2008, I've found Queen/S&M to be hit and miss.
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Could not have said it better myself! Thanks Modoc.
 
knifeswapper said:
Many folks have an opinion one way or the other. You never really know why/how they form their opinion. Some are bought, some are good/bad experiences, and any other of a multitude of reasons. But the market seldom lies over time. If there is a maker that has inconsistent quality, the dealer should probably check them as they come in the door instead of check them as they go out the door. Read reviews and overviews from as many people as possible before forming an opinion; as many times if you are not paying attention you will be reading the same opinion over and over. Those that feel they need to sway your opinion are seldom un-biased in the first place. Finally, the best opinion available is your own. Go to a knife show or purchase from a dealer that has a liberal return policy. You might need to pay shipping both ways, but that is still cheaper in most cases than going and picking it up at a storefront or show. Don't pay attention to return policies, ask the dealer what their return policy is. Dealers have to post return policies for those that would abuse the system. Most dealers are fairly liberal when it comes down to it. But some post very liberal policies and then slam the door once the package leaves the building.

Luckily, there is very little politically motivated posting here. Opinionated yes; but that is what many people come here to find. But KSF is as good a dealer as you can find, and most other mid-tier dealers got that way by treating customers right.
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Well said🤙
 
never had a GEC blade loosen up like my S&M barlow. great new knife. sharp as a tack. daniels era knife. cut a plastic band at work and the blade had instant wobble. real comforting. thought the bolsters were gonna pop off on the next cut. last time that one went to work with me. still love the knife, but it lost my trust in it. did fix it. shouldn't have had to. much rather have a blade that dulls a bit with use than a knife that falls apart. GEC all the way. and I have many queen products. S&m, poor. queen. better. and queen city. I had have had the best luck with. go figure
 
I also would be most interested in Cory's hard use and the GEC knives not "holding up". Did they fall apart or something? You hear stuff like that about Frost (Chattanooga) with their inexpensive slip joints and you hear better reviews of the Rough Rider slip joints made by a competitor using the same steel type. I have been very happy with my GEC knives overall. A couple were nail breakers. One or two were poorly sharpened and that displeased me at the time.

In recent years I have purchased a large stag gunstock (S&M), a smaller single blade S&M in ATS-34, and the slip joint version of the Mountain Man in D2. All of these are excellent, but I haven't used them hard either. I see no reason to use them any different than I would any other traditional knife. But my accumulation of slip joints is such that many do not see even cutting paper these days. I have been carrying a GEC Bullnose #71 for the last month or so and have been pleased. My usual regular carry is a large 105mm SAK. I have been most impressed with GEC's #14 Boys Knife that I purchased and just recently purchase the waynorth SFO barlow on the #14 frame. Really cute little knife actually if you like barlows.

Added: I see that Cory has addressed the holding up of the GEC's. My experience is that in the case of the box rendering/break down, I would have to resharpen when i'm finished. I suspect Queen's D2 would hold an edge longer than GEC's 1095.
 
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I think it all depends on the knife that you are talking about, and its vintage. For Case collectors, 1972 was a watershed year. I wonder if a couple of decades from now, we'll look back and identify 2006 as one for Queen. That's the year that Bill Howard left to start GEC, taking much of the talent at Queen with him.

Pre-2006, Queen made knives every bit the equal of GEC. In some ways, they were better. For example I received this '95 whittler this afternoon. Commissioned by Bluegrass Cutlery, built by Queen, this is a magnificent knife. Pinned shield. Walk-and-talk is just right. Real MOP covers, not pearl acrylic. Grinds are spot on, with high polished blades. Better than anything I've ever experienced with GEC. With GEC, if you want crisp lines on your blades you have to stick with their Tidioute line. Their efforts at high polishing more often than not results in washed out swedges.

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what the heck is a washed out swedge? lol I think you are saying the cut swedges on Northfield trim are slightly radiused transitions due to mirror polishing the blades???
 
I thought I better throw my hat in the ring on this thread. This is my main carry since 2013, S&M Sowbelly. It is the only knife I carry until it fails me or I find something better. I have 0 complaints about this one, as a user it does everything I ever need. If I had purchased it to be a safe queen, I probably could have nit picked and found a few things not perfect. Now that it has been used 3+ years, there are definitely somethings that detract from it, such as a hairline crack in the stag near the bottom pin, and a slow closing blade. But those are to be expected after over 1000 days of carry and use.

 
Beautiful whittler, kamagong. Those Winchesters are still some of the best buys out there in my opinion. They are as close to perfect as you can find in a production knife and are still very affordable and pretty easy to find. I don't have enough experience with all of Queen's history to know when their golden era was, but from everything I've seen I believe the Winchester black box series to be Bill Howard's golden era. They're simply the best knives he's ever had a hand in, from what I've seen.

mightyzaa said:
much rather have a blade that dulls a bit with use than a knife that falls apart
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I really don't care what the failure is. I'd rather have a knife that can accomplish the task at hand than one that can't. I've used my Queen knives much harder than I have ever used a GEC and they hold up better, even if I throw out the usage discrepancy.

For example, I consider the Queen Ruple trapper to be roughly equivalent to my Tidioute 23. They're roughly the same size, pattern, weight, and cost. When I moved a year and a half ago I used my Queen Ruple collaboration when finishing the basement and tiling the bathroom on the new house. I wanted to see how well it would hold up to heavier use. I was able to retile the bathroom with linoleum tiles and drywall and carpet the basement with the Queen. The jobs took me about a week working full time, I'm not a skilled worker so it probably took longer than it should have. I worked that knife all week long and it didn't even blink. I made multiple cuts through linoleum and drywall, neither of which I'd attempt with a GEC. When laying carpet I made multiple cuts against the concrete floor and cinder block wall. The blade of the knife made contact with both surfaces many times. The blades had some wiggle at the end of the week, but weren't what I'd call loose. They also didn't have to be sharpened during the week. I did touch them up at the end of the week. They were noticeably dulled, but there weren't any chips or rolls and they were still cutting reasonably well.

In contrast, my Tidioute wasn't able to hold up to ten minutes of carving on a piece of wood. Once a knife can no longer cut it's a useless tool in my opinion. I have experienced this several times with my GECs and it's never happened to me with a Queen even though I work my Queens much harder than I work my GECs. I won't leave the house with a GEC being my only knife. I simply don't trust them enough. They are great knives for what they are. They are fantastic at smaller jobs, and make wonderful worry stones. However, I would have a hard time recommending one as somebody's only pocket knife or main every day carry. I've come to this conclusion after carrying a GEC every day for several years.

The fact of the matter is that if you're doing any kind of serious work with a knife a slipjoint is probably the least durable construction I have any experience with. You'd be much better served with a fixed blade, friction folder, or modern folder. However, if you prefer the a traditional slipjoint, as most of us here do, Queen makes a much better user than GEC does. At least the dozens of Queens that I have owned have made better users than the dozens of GECs that I have owned.
 
my S&M barlow gets severe blade wobble after cutting one or two plastic banding straps. real trustworthy. my GEC 66 bjm moose rides with me for my last year as a roofer by trade. cuts everything possible that I need it to cut. stuff that one does not usually cut with any type pocketknife. it cut felt paper, sand coated ice and water underlayment. even scraps of shingle. for a solid year. now that is trustworthy.
 
Cory, I've read through all these posts and I can't really argue one way or another because none of my knives, GEC or Queen are used hard. Your argument totally falls apart when you say:

"I worked that knife all week long and it didn't even blink. I made multiple cuts through linoleum and drywall, neither of which I'd attempt with a GEC. When laying carpet I made multiple cuts against the concrete floor and cinder block wall. The blade of the knife made contact with both surfaces many times. The blades had some wiggle at the end of the week, but weren't what I'd call loose. They also didn't have to be sharpened during the week."

First of all, use the right tool for the job. A slipjoint is not that tool. And, you'll never convince me the knife blade sliced across concrete and cinder block and didn't need sharpening.
 
mightyzaa, I'm glad that you get such great performance from your GECs. It sucks that your S&M didn't perform as well. Your experiences don't match my own at all.

Alan, I appreciate your post. However, I'm really not making an argument. I'm simply relaying my experiences. I agree that the Queen was not the right tool for that job. I chose to use it specifically to see how it held up. It performed excellently even though my use was outside the scope of what the knife was designed for. I found it impressive. You might not. The experience increased my trust in that knife. It might not increase your trust. Either way I don't understand why you feel qualified to tell me which tool to use or how I can use the tools that I own.

I never said that my knife sliced across concrete and cinder block. I said that it made contact. To be more descriptive, when cutting the carpet I would put a piece of hard plastic between the carpet and concrete and cut against that. However, pretty regularly I'd go past the end of the plastic, as I couldn't really tell where it ended through the two layers of carpet that was on top of it. At these times the blade would pop off the end of the plastic and hit the concrete. The contact with the cinder block was similar and happened when I was cutting around the walls. I did my best to not hit the blocks, but the carpet didn't crease well and I couldn't always tell where the plastic ended and I hit the wall now and then.

I'm sorry that you don't believe me. However, it's not too surprising and it doesn't change what happened. I have avoided posting about my experiences with GECs quite often, Queens as well. I know that people come on here to share their happiness and joy in their knives. I don't want to ruin that for anybody. However, when somebody comes on and specifically asks for experiences with Queens and you get the GEC brigade coming out and claiming that they make a superior knife I feel that it's OK for me to share that I disagree. The fact that I have different experiences doesn't make me a liar. I'm sorry that you feel it does. I'm also sorry that people have idolized one company to the point that any differing point of view becomes an argument and is not to be trusted. However, it's great that you can be so excited about your knives. I really am truly happy for you. I'm hoping that some day I'll be able to stop looking for a better knife and be satisfied that the one that I'm carrying is perfect. For now I'm still looking. In the mean time is it OK if I keep sharing the experiences that I have along the way?
 
It is obvious GEC has become the benchmark here on the forum, and pros/cons will always be assessed around a benchmark. Generalizations are going to be ubiquitous, example:

Queen offers a steel that has better edge retention than GEC, but the blade grind geometry and uniformity is hit and miss, where as GEC has a better track record of even primary grinds.

Both Queen and GEC have a spotty reputation for a properly finished cutting edge from factory. I could argue every Case knife i've unboxed has been properly sharpened in factory.

But while Case knife steel (both CV and TruSharp) come sharp but don't have as good edge retention as GEC's 1095 or 440C. And the case polishing process is guilty of rounding the pointy tips off blades.

And around and around we go! :)
 
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