S&W (Taylor Cutlery) revisited

Brian - Knowing Darrel and the rep he has in the industry, I know for a fact that he isn't going to align himself with any company that makes crappy reproductions of his designs. He's got good business sense as well, so he must know that Taylor will do a good job with the knives. We'll just have to wait to see the actual production pieces and judge for ourselves, I guess.

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Proud member: AKTI, NCCKG, NCKK, and SCAK


Living life on the edge
 
I really dont get to have input into how the knives are made in most cases.
If it were up to me I would use all preimum material and the best of everything.
This holds true with most colb knives.

The factory knife folks have price point decissions to make and they make them based on market sales. Some have better quality than others. I didnt have any say in how these knives were made. My job is function and knife design. There job is building the knife to meet there market.

I saw the protos at the shot show. They seems to have about the same quality as most knives in the same price point that I have seen by maost other factory folks.

The HRT says it has a 440c blade. Well, thats a step up!

Camillus is moving towards better blade steels (154cm), fit and finish. Thanks to the hard work that Will Fennel does. Will wants nothing but the best. It takes many prototypes and much thought to make a product the best it can be before knife buyer see's it!

Delta Z is using Bg 42 on the Osprey. Also a wood handle thanks to Barnaby taking suggestions. Barn likes the wood , I like the steel!



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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
MADD MAXX !

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 04-04-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 04-04-2001).]
 
Mr.Will Fennell, with all due respect, I was not throwing out any accusations at your company. I was merely asking a question. I did not know about the arrangement Camillus had regarding the CUDA Quick action folder. I was trying to point out that fact that there are companies out there who will produce designs without giving credit to where credit is due. For instance, Taylor Cutlery's tanto neck knife which looks like a Ralph design or the Walther folder produced by Gutmann Cutlery that looks like a Crawford design. I was asking if companies like Camillus and Cold Steel paid royalties to designers on specific models as there is a fine line between inspired designs and rip-offs. I thank you for your clarification on the design, however, I do want to point out that I in no way was "slinging mud" as you said, at your company. I was not aware that my comments were found so offensive.
Good luck.



[This message has been edited by el cid (edited 04-04-2001).]
 
Will, you might be a little sensitive.

el cid, you perhaps need to be more sensitive.

The difference between a ripoff and a collaboration is not at all a fine line - not to the designer who is being ripped off! Is Cold Steel paying royalties to Bogezuski? I would say that's a pretty safe bet, since the knife has his name and photo in the ad copy! Same with Camillus - they give Bob T. mention, and I'm sure there are financial arrangements that follow. Does Steve Ryan get compensated for the Model 7 produced by CRKT? It's not too hard to figure out.

What people like Taylor, Fury, etc. do is steal a design, maybe alter it a little, and then deny any infringement, or outright give design credit to someone else. Do you think they are paying Spyderco for their obvious Dyad ripoff?

Very, very different situations.
 
The reasons A.G. Russell mentioned is the reason I wouldn't buy a S&W knife or a Paragon either. Of course it means little
but it makes me feel better to look past them. There are plenty of honest knife companies and dealers whose products I can buy. I'm expanding this to dealers too.
I keep my money out of the hands of people who make a habit of ripping people off
whenever I can.
 
RH, you have a good point. I agree with you regarding collaborations. I suppose I should have been clearer since I was referring to inspired designs, that is, knives that look like a copy of a custom maker's design without an obvious collaboration, but the maker will claim it as an inspired design. Most collaborations I've seen have the designer's name included on the knife as is the case with the Camillus CQB series, however, I was not aware of the arrangement made for the CUDA folder until Mr Fennell graciously clarified it. You said I should be more sensitive? I was just asking a question and didn't know that it was going to be taken so seriously. I believe that all knife makers and company officer's have the right to defend the knives they make, however, why lash out on someone who was not even criticizing their knives?

[This message has been edited by el cid (edited 04-04-2001).]
 
The S&W swat is a tad too thick for my liking. For the price, if I couldn't get a crkt the next possible choice down would be a Gerber Ez-Out.
 
Camillus has a sterling reputation and have never been accused of ripping anyone off.
ElCid, you did include them asking if they paid royalties to Bob T for the Cuda folder, grouping them in with others as if implying they ripped him off. I had the same question about the Cuda folder as I've been carrying an ATCF for around 2 years now. At the 99 NY Show, I asked Phil Gibbs(?) about it at the Camillus table. He stated the same thing. He said WillF and BobT were friends and that since he didn't design the mechanism, he didn't want his name on it.
On the other hand, S&W, and Tayler Cutlery make their living by ripping off designs. Look at their neck knife with the whistle in the sheath. Unfortunately, most knifemakers don't have the money to persue legal action.

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Dave (Phil.4:13)
I Can Do All Things Through Him Who Strengthens Me
Lifter at work: www.profitness.com/Profiles/profileDaveAbramson
 
Lifter, I was just asking a question. I WAS NOT ACCUSING CAMILLUS OF ANYTHING! How many times do I have to say it? I just asked if Camillus payed royalties to Terzuola for the folder. I was not interested in any financial details, I just wanted to know because I had never heard any mention about a collaboration with Bob on the CUDA folder. I also asked the same question about Cold Steel of which I was not accusing them of ripping off designs either. For my ignorance in the matter I get accused of mud slinging.

 
Hi El Cid. Many of the forumites here have been "hangin'" out here for many years. The question of "stolen" design is a sensitive issue. It is much cheaper to "steal" designs, rather than pay for development, R&D, royalties, etc. This makes it easier to offer "less expensive versions".

Mr. Taylor has a history of being the "first" to knock off stuff. AG Russell mentioned a few. He copied the "Crock Stick" and hurt the original inventor (Louis Graves). He copied the original Bali-song that Pacific Cutlery Corp produced (now Benchmade) and contributed IMO to the demise of PCC. Most of the S&W line are pattern copies of my own designs (Spyderco).

It is difficult to overcome such a history. When you mentioned something perceived as "positive" against such a history, I'm sure many of the forumites felt the "immediate need" to educate your obvious good intentions.

Most of the knife companies doing collaborations demonstrate integrity in their design efforts. They would not mention the name of a designer without having some mutually beneficial arrangement.

Companies like Cammillus, Imperial Schrade, Benchmade, CRKT and many others have very high ethical behavior in their dealings with designers.

"Yes Virginia", brand name does make a difference, because it is the brand name that guarantees the ethics behind the product.

sal
 
Sal, I agree with you in that it is a sensitive issue. I own various knives from various reputable companies and am proud to carry and use them. I do not own any Smith & Wesson knives, but have noticed that many people, especially down here in the south, seem to be drawn to the S&W name, even though it's mainly folks who are not knife educated well enough to know Stewart Taylor's history. I regret that there was a mis-interpretation of my previous post and I meant no disrespect to Camillus of Mr. Fennell. I want to also clarify that I'm not defending Taylor Cutlery's reputation of stealing designs in order to make a fast buck. I just saw their ad in the latest issue of Blade and it is the first time I have seen them ackowledge a custom designer on one of their advertisements. Perhaps it marks a change in Taylor's marketing tactics? I don't know. If it is they will have a long way to go to redeem themselves in the eyes of many.
 
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