S110V vs S90V

dkb45

dkb45

Joined
Dec 16, 2012
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I recent branched out into a lot more knives in super steels. Learnes I'm absolutely in love with M390, and just last week got a knife in S110V (Paramilitary 3). Week before I got an S90V ZT 0095 but didn't get around to fixing the edge up until last week.

I cut up a lot of cardboard at work. S90V held a surprisingly good edge, even the razor edge stayed, very uncharacteristic of of S__V steels in my experience. My Paramilitary did not fare nearly as well. First off, the edge seemed to have tooth that I could not sharpen out. The razor edge was gone after very little cutting, more like what I expect from S35VN and S30V.

S90V and S110V are supposed to be extremely similar steels, so any idea why they both held edges so wildly different? They were both sharpened to around the same angle with the same methods, but S90V took a hair whittling edge, and S110V only got to "pretty sharp" and the tooth never refined out?
 
That's the only thing I can think it is, because my PM3 just does not want to take a keen edge, but it holds a working edge.
 
I have limited experience with Spyderco S90V (Manix LW) and own a S110V (Manix Blurple). My finding is similar to OP, S90V is easier to be touched up (following factory bevel) than S110V. Both used smoothed out DMT EEF.

Having said that, it is possible the factory edge is ‘burnt’ from power sharpening. Sometimes it requires several sharpening sessions to get to good steel.
 
Chris "Anagarika" said:
I have limited experience with Spyderco S90V (Manix LW) and own a S110V (Manix Blurple). My finding is similar to OP, S90V is easier to be touched up (following factory bevel) than S110V. Both used smoothed out DMT EEF.

Having said that, it is possible the factory edge is ‘burnt’ from power sharpening. Sometimes it requires several sharpening sessions to get to good steel.
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That could make some sense, because my ZT needed a pretty significant reprofile when I got it to get the edge where I wanted it, and I've fully resharpened the Spyderco 3 times now, initial reprofile, once to try to take out the tooth after I finished (just followed the butt as I normally do), and a second time to further reduce the tooth. This time I finished on my super worn DMT Coarse stone, and the edge seems a lot more consistent.
 
I've found that the new generation of powder metallurgy steels -- at least those with large(r) carbides cut better with slightly toothy finishes -- DMT red seems to perform well for me on S30V, S35Vn, CTS-XHP. D2 falls into this category as well. CTS-XHP seems to take a finer edge, for whatever reason. Spyderco has a great steel chart in its catalogue (you can download), well worth reading. (Just hide the credit card...:D)
 
I have a Military s90v and a Manix s110v but have not used much of either. My understanding is s110v is chippier but can hold an edge longer, than s90v.
 
I finished sharpening my PM3 one more time, using my full stone progression, and it still maintains that toothiness that I just can't shake. It seems the steel does not want to take a razor edge at all.
 
Take a course diamond to your S110V at 40 degrees inclusive for about 50 strokes to scrape off the outside layer. Then give it about another 50 strokes on a 400 grit stone or diamond. This gets to the “good” steel below the factory edge and brings up that aggressive high vanadium carbide micro chainsaw edge that cuts cardboard from now until my mortgage is paid off.

S110V is an awesome performer when done right, but it is also finnicky and doesn’t leave much margin for error. It CANNOT be run super thin like M4 and be expected to do well.
 
Its do-able to make s110v into a razor.
The guy in video proves it many times. He has other longer discussion videos on the same steel.
 
dkb45, you are talking about some of the same experiences I have had so I can relate to it. I have changed my sharpening routines for these super high abrasive resistant stainless's because of it. It helps a little but mostly it's just the nature of the beast. With these steels a few things are important. Clean sharp cutting stones help a great deal and a light touch with no great leaps between grits when going through the progression of grits. I try to keep it to no more than about 200-300 grit differences (when possible). ie: 1000 grit to 1200 grit, then up to 1500 grit, finishing at 2000. Beginning is even more important. Don't use the low grit stones pressing hard. That sets up the edge for failure later. I usually begin at 400 grit and go up to 600, etc. I find the edge does better when I keep my routine disciplined and don't get in too much of a hurry and skip steps. It's more important with these highly abrasive resistant steels than with lesser steels

That is the tough part with these steels because even with Diamond or silicone carbide it takes a long time. I often have to do it in a multiple day timeframe to keep from pushing it too fast and damaging the edge. Fortunately I have plenty of other knives to use when resetting an edge. Upkeep is not difficult but it all depends on the quality of the work I did setting the bevel.

I'm also leaning more towards SiC and using the diamonds less. I feel I get the better, less (micro)chippy edge with them. I never will really be a stainless guy but I do have quite a few knives in S30V/35Vn, S90V, S110V, and M390 as well as old standards like BG 42 and it's analogs, and even a few old 440V/S60V Spydercos. I used to think the super steel class didn't take high sharpness and thin edges while remaining intact but then I got my first Phil Wilson full hardness knife in S110V. It gets as sharp as anyone can want a knife to and stays that way but the feel of the edge will always be different on skin and fingernails compared to lower carbided steels. I've been cut and sliced enough times to even think they feel different while slicing into my skin. They almost seem to eat through the skin ( surface tension before the skin parts) easier than even sharper and thinner steels with less carbide fraction.

I'm not the best at describing what I'm talking about and I'm not above making up my own words so I'll try to sum it up. If your knife doesn't seem as sharp as you want, or stay sharp then attack it differently until it does. :)

Joe
 
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I feel I should specify that the toothy parts of the edges are never in the same spot (indicating an incomplete reprofile), and it's never the full edge. There's just little sections that stay toothy every time I resharpen the blade.
 
Update- it took 6 total resharpening sessions to do it, but I finally got a refined razor edge on S110V. Absolutely no clue why it took so much work to get it like that, especially when S90V took one session and it was good to go.
 
dkb45 said:
I finished sharpening my PM3 one more time, using my full stone progression, and it still maintains that toothiness that I just can't shake. It seems the steel does not want to take a razor edge at all.
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I had the exact same problems with a military s110v. It was the one steel I had issues with. I gave it away, I tried sharpening on the wicked edge and diamond paste strops, just couldn't get it to the sharpness I wanted. I hear people say s110v is excellent, I believe them, my experience has been different.
 
Comparing results from your S90V ZT to your S110V Spyderco, the issue could be that the Spyderco is run at a higher RC. (I don't know if that's true). If true, you might not be spending enough time at a given grit or progressing too quickly through grits such that the harder Spyderco edge is coarser/unrefined/inconsistent.
Glad your persistence paid off and you got a great edge on the Spyderco!
 
Great thread on experience with these two or three super steels. My take is that I likely won't buy a knife in S110V after reading this as I am not so patient. After the second go on sharpening, I'd probably dump it in my knife box never to be used again. I haven't tried a lot of the super steels, but I am very pleased with M390. I tend to stick with what works for me.
 
These high wear-resistant steels are best used as slicers with thin edges. If you start with an edge that has thin, acute geometry, the sharpening issues pretty much solve themselves. The difference between sharpening an edge set with 0.030 shoulders and one set with 0.01 inch shoulders is night and day.
 
People often think S110V should sharpen like S90V. S110V is more wear resistant with higher carbide fraction at the same hardness.That means more sharpening strokes with the same stone. It's even more pronounced at higher hardness. S110V was designed to be run at higher hardness's than S90V and is when talking about Spyderco knives. It just takes more work than S90V to get the same results so I'd bet this is what some are seeing. It can take any edge the other steels ( in it's class) are capable of . It's freely available but not all the owners are able to get maximum capability of this steel. It will out abrade M390 but I've heard many say the opposite.

Joe
 
The Mastiff said:
People often think S110V should sharpen like S90V. S110V is more wear resistant with higher carbide fraction at the same hardness.That means more sharpening strokes with the same stone. It's even more pronounced at higher hardness. S110V was designed to be run at higher hardness's than S90V and is when talking about Spyderco knives. It just takes more work than S90V to get the same results so I'd bet this is what some are seeing. It can take any edge the other steels ( in it's class) are capable of . It's freely available but not all the owners are able to get maximum capability of this steel. It will out abrade M390 but I've heard many say the opposite.

Joe
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S90V was an absolute bear to work, but S110V was honestly not much worse to set bevels. The steel just kinda tricks you, by needing so many more strokes to get fully set. The Apex seemed by all accounts to be set, and it seemed sharp until I cut a little receipt paper and the teeth became apparent. Maybe I just lucked out, and the S90V wasn't wanting to fight as much.
 
That's the difference between you and many others. You kept going until you got what you wanted. You also have enough experience to understand what you were seeing and the confidence to trust your own eyes. Many just give up and talk about how S 110V ( or any other ) can't take or keep edges.

:)

Joe
 
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