S30V and 440C

mathman said:
Where is the best place to buy knives like the Outbounder...where I live, there are not any stores that carry it for a reasonable price. I looked on ebay and there are a few places listed for prices around $70 (like knifestore, etc...). Does anyone have experience buying knives on ebay? Is this something I should pursue? Thanks again!
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Tim Dowling
 
Cliff Stamp said:
They make it harder to remove material, however the machinability should not be a significant factor as you should not be removing lots of material when sharpening anyway. This is only really an issue the first time you sharpen if the NIB profile is radically different from your preference, in this case reworking S30V can take longer, but assuming it isn't on a big tactical you should be able to do it in a few minutes with an aggressive x-coarse hone anyway.

-Cliff
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I didn't say it would take a long time, I said it would be more difficult. It will take at least slightly longer, though.
 
Some people think too highly of S30V, others think it isn't as good as it is. It's definitely not as tough as A2, it's not even as tough as D2. The toughness number given aren't exactly helpful. All it really gives is transverse toughness, and all we have is their word for it that that test is a good indicator of toughness for knife steels. The more standard test, longitudal toughness, it says that it has the same toughness as 440C and 154-CM, all at 25-28 ft. lbs. 440C gets 26 ft. lbs. at 56 Rc, so what hardness was S30V? 154-CM is tougher than 440C, so these numbers aren't very accurate. D2 should be hovering around 28-31 ft. lbs. at 60 Rc. Edge retention should be great, 59-60 Rc and hard vanadium carbides, so it is high for both contributors of edge retention. It has a fairly good balance of vanadium, not too much to make sharpening too difficult, but 440C and 154-CM will still be easier to sharpen. A good carbon steel will take a fraction of the time to sharpen. Corrosion resistance will be less than either 440C, and less than 154-CM in certain applications, but greater in others. 440C overall is going to be more corrosion resistant. In my opinion, it is corrosion resistant enough, so it doesn't matter. S30V is a good fairly balanced steel. 154-CM could be tougher, we don't have enough numbers to know for sure, but I can guarantee that CPM-154 will be tougher, more corrosion resistant, easier to sharpen, and fairly close in edge retention to S30V. 154-CM got 125% compared to 145% of S30V in the CATRA according to Crucible, and Spydero said that CPM-154 with the same heat treatment as normal 154-CM had a 20% increase in edge retention.

Edit: D2 is 28-30 joules, not ft.lbs. in the toughness test, it is 21-23 ft. lbs. 154-CM gets 120% in the CATRA, not 125%.
 
Larrin said:
154-CM got 125% compared to 145% of S30V in the CATRA according to Crucible, and Spydero said that CPM-154 with the same heat treatment as normal 154-CM had a 20% increase in edge retention.
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That would actually put CPM-154CM over S30V in CATRA scores depending on how you want to interpret 20% increase, but it is at least as good which is interesting. What were the hardness for the two blands tested? Has Crucible noted the relative wear resistances?

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
That would actually put CPM-154CM over S30V in CATRA scores depending on how you want to interpret 20% increase, but it is at least as good which is interesting. What were the hardness for the two blands tested? Has Crucible noted the relative wear resistances?

-Cliff
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Well, I actually wrote it wrong, I meant 120%, not 125%, which would put it 1% under S30V after a 20 percent increase, hardly a significant amount, but I'm not sure the percentages used by Crucible and the percentage difference given by Spydero can be used together, because Sal Glesser doesn't even know what those percentages given by Crucible mean (he said this on Spyderco forum when asking him a question about CATRA), so when saying that CPM-154 has a 20% increase over 154-CM it doesn't necessarily mean it will score a 144%. Sal didn't give hardnesses, he only said that the CPM-154 had the same heat treatment as 154-CM, my guess is that the CPM-154 would be 1 or 2 Rc points higher than the 154-CM, because of better response to heat treatment from the CPM process. The fact that the CPM process allows it to be one or two points higher without loss of toughness means that that isn't an issue, and with the overall increase of toughness from the CPM process, it may be tougher in some tests even at higher hardness. Spyderco is usually not looking for ways to make one steel better than another, so I'm sure they used typical heat treatments, they were likely in the 58-62 Rc range. Crucible hasn't given any relative wear resistance values that I'm aware of. CPM-154 sounds like a very balanced steel to me. I hope it gains popularity after its major release. I like steels that are easy to sharpen, so CPM-154 will be a better "super steel" (in my mind) than S30V. Not to mention it should be tougher, for all of those carbon steel lovers (who are used to really tough steels) or tactical guys (who seem to think toughness is the main test of a knife).
 
I sent in one of my RSK 1 knives to Aeromedix and they promptly sent a new one to me...the new one seems to have a different angle on the edge. I don't know if this is an effort to avoid some of the problems or not.
 
There is usually some angle variation to be expected from one to another. It would be interesting to see if the replacements in general were thickened.

-Cliff
 
After reading this thread and some others, it seems that maybe a good compromise between 440C and S30V is 154CM...in terms of toughness, who knows, maybe it's even better. I realize that there is no steel (or anything else for that matter) that will be best for every application...but it seems that 154CM might have a more 'proven' track record than S30V.
 
mathman said:
After reading this thread and some others, it seems that maybe a good compromise between 440C and S30V is 154CM...in terms of toughness, who knows, maybe it's even better. I realize that there is no steel (or anything else for that matter) that will be best for every application...but it seems that 154CM might have a more 'proven' track record than S30V.
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That is mostly my opinion, though it isn't shared by many others. There was a thread not long ago discussing why makers would even consider still using 154-CM. These people generally are the product of hype, not of use or research, though many of them have used 154-CM, it seems people have pre-conceived notions about how a steel will perform, and if it's not a "wonder steel" they think it performed "good." If it's a popular steel, they think it was "awesome" though the performance difference may have been slight, the super steel may have even been worse, but for the applications that most of us use knives for, the differences seen will be small between the higher-performance steels. By higher-performance steel I mostly mean anything 440C quality or higher. By the way, in the context of good steels that people sometimes don't think are very good, there's an article written on "AEB-L" steel here: http://www.devinthomas.com/pages/faq.html It's not linked directly by devinthomas.com yet.
 
Well, from some of the replies I've received, 440C even seems pretty hard to beat for a cost/value perspective...eventually I will probably have many knives in many different steels...it's seems pretty easy to get hooked!

I've been looking at the BM Presidio 520 in 154CM...could be my next purchase...or perhaps the Outbounder...decisions, decisions...
 
But you know it seems that many of the big name custom makers are putting out knives in S30V. As far as I know it is the first steel designed from the ground up to be used in the cutlery industry. Are some of the top guys in the industry just catering to demand? Or do they really think it's a better steel? I've heard a couple makers say that it it's a good balance between a wear resistant steel and ease of manufacture.
To be honest I'm not sure that I could tell the difference between the two steels. But I do prefer the S30V. :p
 
Scott Dog said:
But you know it seems that many of the big name custom makers are putting out knives in S30V.
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I would not use popularity as a means to judge quality. That logic will lead you down very strange paths.

As far as I know it is the first steel designed from the ground up to be used in the cutlery industry.
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http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3117662&postcount=42

There are many tool steels which are designed to hold sharp edges. There are also many decent blade steels which were intended to for ball bearings, springs, anvils, etc. .

Are some of the top guys in the industry just catering to demand?
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Obviously, it isn't a nonprofit business. How many extensive public reports have you seen where makers compared one of their designs in S30V to ATS-34 and shown the performance change?

-Cliff
 
So, if you had a choice for a good all-around & hunting blade between four and five inches, would you rather have it in S30V or ATS-34? And, I should add, I'm a novice when it comes to sharpening.
 
These two steels are very close, what I would be most critical of is the initial edge profile. You don't want to have to reprofile it NIB, especially S30V, and you want to minimize the edge profile to maximize cutting ability and ease of sharpening. I would pick S30V and harden it Wilson style at 61/62 HRC.

-Cliff
 
The interesting thing about 440C is that although it may not be the latest, greatest 'wonder steel', I haven't heard anything bad about it...and I definitely need something that I can sharpen myself with a simple stone...I admit that I am a novice.
 
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