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S30V Broken Blades
- Thread starter Tazz10m
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There was a break reported. I've seen one. Mostly what has been reported are micro chipping of the edges and this is usually associated with a bevel angle that is too steep so the edge was weakened. I think some companies made adjustments there to give them a slightly more obtuse or thicker edge profile before shipping and this in conjunction with perhaps some other minor primary grind changes have fixed the problems reported.
I read early on that heat treatment was to blame but I think many are too quick to blame that when it was probably more related to the above all along.
STR
I read early on that heat treatment was to blame but I think many are too quick to blame that when it was probably more related to the above all along.
STR
A friend of mine chipped the tip on his new Native s30v blade. He said he just snug tightened a philips head screw, applied a small amount of tork and it chipped. He should have known better but it really didn't take much effort to chip the way it did. Sorry no pics. Got it replaced at Walmart..
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I have two knives with S30V blades and I am quite happy with both. Having said that, I use my knivers as knives, not as axes, prybars, screwdrivers, hammers etc.
If I wanted a knife to use as a multi-tool, I'd get 1095, 52-100, AUS8 or something like that.
If I wanted a knife to use as a multi-tool, I'd get 1095, 52-100, AUS8 or something like that.
Well, excuuuuuuse me! Where did i say anything about using a knife as a "multi-tool"??? And, while you're trying to figure that one out, why don't you try taking a stab at trying to explain to all of us why you already have it figured out that you would rather use 1095, 52100, or AUS-8, or something like that for a mult-tool knife???
Oh, and since when is a "knife" (as opposed to your "knivers", sorry, don't know what those are...) not used to chop, hack, or pry, if it is intended to be used as a survival tool???
Ben Dover, Mr. Tool Expert!
Some of us are trying to learn here! Not all of us here have everything all figured out. Maybe that's why we ask... to find out what OTHER peoples experience is. :barf:
Easy! No need to get upset. No one here tried to be anything but helpful. The search function is you friend and S30V has been discussed to no end. In those threads you will also find Ben Dovers answers to your questions.
You have to consider several scenarios. When we are talking folders and we are talking about breaking a 4 mm knife in S30V, then either you have had a faulty piece or you have already been using it not just as a multitool but as a prybar. There is very little doubt about that. While one the otherhand you might break the tip of a knife, especially the first 1mm very easily. Now using a folder as a survival knife it still doesn't mean that you can subject it to arbitrary loads. Any folder can be broken.
Now, if we are talking fixed blades, we are in a completely different ball park. I particular large fixed blades can be subjected routinely to heavy shock loads while chopping, any well constructed fixed blade can be batoned and with in reason, can even be used to pry, as long as you stay away from the tip some, as the tip of a fixed blade may be as thin as that of any folder. For those applications S30V is not ideal. S30V is reasonable fine grained and very abrasion resistant but its toughness is substantially less than that of simple carbon steels. When I say substantially, we are talking about several hundred percent. Meaning a blade in 52100, 5160, 1095, 1085 etc. can, when properly treated withstand far more "abuse" in the sense of chopping, batoning and prying than pretty much any stainless steel, in particular more than stainless steels with large carbide content of which S30V is certainly an example. On the other hand, those carbon steel have not nearly the abrasion resistance as S30V and again, we are talking several hundred percent. That still doesn't mean that a blade in 5160 can not be broken. You might get one with a hidden flaw, hell even a dogfather in SR77 can break. But one incidence like this is hardly statistical meaningful. Instead of blaming the steel or the manufacturer, it is likely just an isolated problem.
I have been a frequent visitor of this forum for a while now, and I have not seen a significant number of reports of S30V blades being broken. Chipping has always been a problem with S30V but clean breaks through the main part of the blade I know of very few examples. The isolated case of the Military that was already mentioned. A german knife magazine broke the now discontinued Spyderco Ti ATR 1" from the tip after subjecting it to about 200+ lbs at the tail end of the knife (the knife still won the test overall). Cliff Stamp broke a Spyderco Chinook about 1" from the tip by bouncing his full body weight on the handle and Noss4 has documented the breaking of a Strider knife on video. The activities leading up to the break included chopping of concrete, batoning with a sledgehammer, punching through sheets of steel etc. But by the same token, Noss's tests of the CS GI Tanto illustrate that S30V is hardly ideal for these extreme use activities as the GI Tanto in a simple carbon steel (1055) will withstand more abuse for a fraction of the money.
What I haven't address is the advantages of geometry that toughness brings. In short, if a steel is tougher, you can make the blade thinner for a given intended toughness, and a thinner blade will in many cases cut better than a thick blade. This is the real short story. For more on geometry please use the search function.
You have to consider several scenarios. When we are talking folders and we are talking about breaking a 4 mm knife in S30V, then either you have had a faulty piece or you have already been using it not just as a multitool but as a prybar. There is very little doubt about that. While one the otherhand you might break the tip of a knife, especially the first 1mm very easily. Now using a folder as a survival knife it still doesn't mean that you can subject it to arbitrary loads. Any folder can be broken.
Now, if we are talking fixed blades, we are in a completely different ball park. I particular large fixed blades can be subjected routinely to heavy shock loads while chopping, any well constructed fixed blade can be batoned and with in reason, can even be used to pry, as long as you stay away from the tip some, as the tip of a fixed blade may be as thin as that of any folder. For those applications S30V is not ideal. S30V is reasonable fine grained and very abrasion resistant but its toughness is substantially less than that of simple carbon steels. When I say substantially, we are talking about several hundred percent. Meaning a blade in 52100, 5160, 1095, 1085 etc. can, when properly treated withstand far more "abuse" in the sense of chopping, batoning and prying than pretty much any stainless steel, in particular more than stainless steels with large carbide content of which S30V is certainly an example. On the other hand, those carbon steel have not nearly the abrasion resistance as S30V and again, we are talking several hundred percent. That still doesn't mean that a blade in 5160 can not be broken. You might get one with a hidden flaw, hell even a dogfather in SR77 can break. But one incidence like this is hardly statistical meaningful. Instead of blaming the steel or the manufacturer, it is likely just an isolated problem.
I have been a frequent visitor of this forum for a while now, and I have not seen a significant number of reports of S30V blades being broken. Chipping has always been a problem with S30V but clean breaks through the main part of the blade I know of very few examples. The isolated case of the Military that was already mentioned. A german knife magazine broke the now discontinued Spyderco Ti ATR 1" from the tip after subjecting it to about 200+ lbs at the tail end of the knife (the knife still won the test overall). Cliff Stamp broke a Spyderco Chinook about 1" from the tip by bouncing his full body weight on the handle and Noss4 has documented the breaking of a Strider knife on video. The activities leading up to the break included chopping of concrete, batoning with a sledgehammer, punching through sheets of steel etc. But by the same token, Noss's tests of the CS GI Tanto illustrate that S30V is hardly ideal for these extreme use activities as the GI Tanto in a simple carbon steel (1055) will withstand more abuse for a fraction of the money.
What I haven't address is the advantages of geometry that toughness brings. In short, if a steel is tougher, you can make the blade thinner for a given intended toughness, and a thinner blade will in many cases cut better than a thick blade. This is the real short story. For more on geometry please use the search function.
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Had one that was thin at the tip flex about 15 degrees, and bent it back. I was actually testing the tip out of curiosity, and am sure a stronger blade would have broken with little flexing(or just not flexed, if using the same force), since ductility isn't one of S30V's strong points.
S30V is one of my favorite steels for what I consider normal use, and I've used it in over a dozen knives since it first became available in customs about 5 1/2 years ago, but I wouldn't choose any "premium" stainless for a blade that you're going to "chop, hack, or pry" with.
It may be tough for a stainless at relatively high hardness(59-60Rc being typical), but that's not saying a whole lot, as most simple carbon steels will be much tougher at the same hardness.
HoB made some good points that I'd just be repeating if I went much further in that direction.
I imagine what Ben meant by "multitool" is using a knife as something other than a pure cutting tool-so your steel requirements are going to change with the performance priorities.
Fully hardened 1095, 0170-6 and INFI have all performed well for me in that respect. They're plenty strong, but also give you some warning by flexing instead of breaking-particularly INFI.
Some of the more attractive offerings in larger knives(to me, anyway) are differentially tempered, but that shouldn't be much of a problem unless you intend to do a lot of heavy prying with the knife, and if you do, at least you're less likely to accidentally break the blade.
S30V is one of my favorite steels for what I consider normal use, and I've used it in over a dozen knives since it first became available in customs about 5 1/2 years ago, but I wouldn't choose any "premium" stainless for a blade that you're going to "chop, hack, or pry" with.
It may be tough for a stainless at relatively high hardness(59-60Rc being typical), but that's not saying a whole lot, as most simple carbon steels will be much tougher at the same hardness.
HoB made some good points that I'd just be repeating if I went much further in that direction.
I imagine what Ben meant by "multitool" is using a knife as something other than a pure cutting tool-so your steel requirements are going to change with the performance priorities.
Fully hardened 1095, 0170-6 and INFI have all performed well for me in that respect. They're plenty strong, but also give you some warning by flexing instead of breaking-particularly INFI.
Some of the more attractive offerings in larger knives(to me, anyway) are differentially tempered, but that shouldn't be much of a problem unless you intend to do a lot of heavy prying with the knife, and if you do, at least you're less likely to accidentally break the blade.
That kind of data is available to those who test under controlled science lab conditions. There are maybe a dozen makers who go to that point, and what they know, they keep to themselves under proprietary knowledge. It is a competitive business.
I haven't found anyone in the knife industry OR magazines who will suffer the expense of Consumer Reports type testing and publication of data. Much of what you can find on the I-net will be hearsay, or conducted under questionable circumstances. The video from Noss4 is a prime example as the blade was broken off camera. No one really has an idea how he did it.
About the only consistent testing is done by the Knifemakers Guild, as an aspirant who wants to join must forge a blade and subject it to a bending test. As very few forge stainless, it's no help with S30V. They use a lot of carbon steels because they work well in that format - they temper hard enough, yet remain ductile under stress.
I don't think we'll ever see an unbreakable folder blade - the size, thickness and things its used on dictate a thin, hard blade that cannot be ductile enough. One exception might be something like an Extrema Ratio RAO, but it's not a pocket knife by any standard. Another is a fillet knife - the blade is so thin, it would be really difficult to break. It's also impossible to pry with.
As was suggested, breaking a blade is really a clue that you shouldn't have been doing that - it was the wrong tool for the job. S30V was developed to cut, not pry, it does that job well.
I figured this would come up eventually about the Strider BT test. I did break it off camera because the tape simply ran out about 3 seconds before the blade broke. You can clearly hear the break in the audio portion because I was using double system sound to improve the audio quality.
But the break itself is not on camera so I fully understand the questions people may have on this. There is nothing I can do except explain what happened.
There was no foul play involved in the Strider test you have word on this. All the other blades I tested to destruction have been captured on video. The Strider was a video error I was solely responsible for because I failed to stop and change the tape before it ran out. I closely watch the tape time now to make sure it never happens again.
Anyways the Strider BT S30V put on a good showing and there was never any edge chipping during the test. I was very impressed with it's toughness and durability.
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That's why they invented the screwdriver.
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Butcher your friend sounds like me!!! I have a native in s30V and I did the same thing. Very light on the torque when trying to use it a screwdriver. A little disapointing considering a cheapo chinese 440 stainless would not have chipped. I expected a little more resillience but hey it is not a screwdriver and I still like the knife alot.
Not exactly sherlock
.. That's why my little buddy is getting a SAK for Christmas
He got away with it using the old Buck 110, but not with his Native. He learned the hard way, soon he'll have a nice proper quick tool..
That is because the cheapo 440 is probably run so soft, that it will bend rather than break, of course this is why it will not hold or take an edge either. There is more to the difference between screwdriver and knife than just the shape. Also, I wouldn't bet on the chinese cheapo using 440 SS. Spyderco's experience with the chinese has shown that they are not familiar with the american steel lables, and the cheapo might be of god knows what steel.
On the search function: I did not know. Must be fairly recent. Should there be questions to my post, I will elaborate but so far the OP hasn't spoken up.
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Hob, Joshua is correct; they had to disable search for users temporarily due to the unexplained but frequent down times. They are trying to fix. So for now, Search is not talking to you.
Thanks for clearing that up, Noss4. You may have commented before, I appreciate that you are willing to again.
It does point out that some steels, as explained, are meant for cutting, and some are not. Let's also take into consideration that knives aren't meant for screwdriving, and screwdrivers get broken when used as prybars and chisels. Of course, ignorance of proper tool use will allow you to modify them for alternative use, and, yes, I own some dual purpose tools now.
And they don't do either job real well.
It does point out that some steels, as explained, are meant for cutting, and some are not. Let's also take into consideration that knives aren't meant for screwdriving, and screwdrivers get broken when used as prybars and chisels. Of course, ignorance of proper tool use will allow you to modify them for alternative use, and, yes, I own some dual purpose tools now.
And they don't do either job real well.
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I suppose that knivers are something like mult-tools. Not too sure about that, though. I'll get back to you.