S30V & chipping

[Thalestin]

Never had any problems with my s30v blades. So far have only used the bm mini skirmish and sebenza. Cut many different things and no problems. I think it may be the edge is a little weak on virgin blades. Once it gets used, they are fine

 

[Cisco Kid]

Recently, I was very surprised to find my Sage 1 chipped in two places after whittling a popsicle stick. Considering how soft the wood was, this left me quite puzzled and a bit disappointed. Immediately tried a similar stick with a D2 Para and had no problems. Don't know what to think...

 

[Jason B.]

What most call chipping I call normal wear and truthfully most of them are far from being chips.

The chips or deformations as I like to call them happen for the same reason that S30V will snap before it bends.

Steels are as individual as people, trying to compare steel A to steel B is much more complex than most would think.

 

[The Deacon]

Recently, I was very surprised to find my Sage 1 chipped in two places after wittling a popsicle stick. Considering how soft the wood was, this left me quite puzzled and a bit disappointed. Immediately tried a similar stick with a D2 Para and had no problems. Don't know what to think...

Most logical things to consider would be that a thinner blade may chip more easily than thicker one and/or that there is a degree of randomness to these things. Others have reported minor chipping with S30V versions of both the Para and the Military, so even assuming thickness is a consideration, is not the only issue. My admitted limited understanding is, that the same carbides which provide wear resistance are what cause the chipping if some of them are right at the edge. If that's the case, it's not something the person grinding the blade can control.

It's certainly not unique to S30V. Despite JD's positive experience, one of the things that "killed" 440V was its reputation for chipping. Folks have reported chipping VG-10 and ZDP-189 as well.

Paul

My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Kiwimania ---- Spydiewiki
Dead horses beaten, sacred cows tipped, chimeras hunted when time permits.
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
It's easy to grin when your ship comes in and good fortune and fame are your lot, but the man worthwhile is the man who can smile with his shorts twisted up in a knot. - Morey Amsterdam

 

[NoFair]

Zip ties damage the edge? Never had that happen to me, even the crazy thick zip ties. Make sure it's a clean cut though, if you get a 30* edge in and start torquing it all over the place it might chip out a bit, but nothing major.

Quoted for truth:thumbup:

Lots of edge damage is caused by bad cutting technique. Torque and thin edges don't really go together well S30V or not.

Sverre

 

[Buffalohump]

I have yet to chip any of my S30V blades but I did lend a Para-Millie serrated to my wife and some time later I discovered a large piece missing from the plain edge area near the tip.

I did ask her how it happened but she appeared to have no recollection of the incident. Those who are married will not find this surprising.

I do have a healthy respect for cable ties. IMO use a pair of wire cutters for them. I also have heavy duty shears that I use for that type of work.

I admit it, I baby my knives. Except the Pacific Salt, that gets worked hard.

 

[arty]

I have lots of knives in VG10 and I have never seen chipping. I have a Spyderco kitchen knife and it sees lots of use from cutting up pineapples, veggies and other kitchen stuff. It has even seen bones when cutting up chicken or turkey - no chipping on anything.
It keeps an edge forever.

 

[AF]

I've experienced that kind of small chipping in S30V and VG-10. I don't think it's a big deal.

 

[JD Spydo]

I have never had a zip tie chip a blade and would say that is not normal. But I have had S30V chip and I think on a new knife it is fairly common. I think it is because when the knife is sharpened at the factory they sometimes get a little overheated on the edge which can change the hardness and make it a little brittle. However, after a few sharpenings this more brittle steel is removed. Once it has been sharpened a few times in my experience any chipping will go away, unless it is abused.

I could go along with that theory except for one big elephant that won't leave the living room>> Then why aren't all the other blade steels that Spyderco is using also chipping. I'm not hearing that about D-2, S90V, VG-10, M-4 or any of the other steels currently in use. Also I never heard that about it's CPM predecessor 440V (S60V).

With all due respect "FlaMtnBkr" I don't think that's the problem. Because back when I first heard reports of S30V chipping about 3 to 4 years ago I was also hearing about another steel chipping and some of the guys at CPM were saying that S30V and a couple of other blade steels were very difficult to heat treat properly. I've heard that D-2 is so difficult is why many knife companies won't use it.

I also thought that it might have been bad batches but there are so many S30V blades that have failed people that I now just have to believe it has some very bad performance aspects to it.

 

[JD Spydo]

I have lots of knives in VG10 and I have never seen chipping. I have a Spyderco kitchen knife and it sees lots of use from cutting up pineapples, veggies and other kitchen stuff. It has even seen bones when cutting up chicken or turkey - no chipping on anything.
It keeps an edge forever.

Same here I've literally abused 3 of my VG-10 Spyders that I use for outdoor purposes and I've yet to have one chip. I never even ever had Spyderco's kitchen knife steel MBS-26 ever chip. And GOD Know's I've been very rough on my MBS-26 Spyders.

The only 2 user Spyders I had with S30V just didn't hold an edge as good as any of my 440V Spyders ever did either. And I could name off 10 more blade steels I've used of theirs that never chipped.

And I was surprised because of the good luck I had with 440V ( S30V's predecessor). It's either in the heat treating or other properties that need to be studied.

 

[The Mastiff]

Pretty much any of the large, hard ( evil!) carbide containing steels are susceptible to chipping as shown in the picture with the factory type coarse grind. Those grinds feel very scary when we touch them, and do a great job cutting out of the boxbut the chips are the downside.

When taken up to a higher finish such as on the sharpmaker, or DMT, India stones those chips will pretty much stop, untill the edge gets too thin to support the load, or if misused by twisting out of cuts, or some such other contributor.

S30V is actually a pretty tough steel for such a highly alloyed steel. Still, it's not meant for extreme usage either.

My opinion anyway.

 

[The Deacon]

I could go along with that theory except for one big elephant that won't leave the living room>> Then why aren't all the other blade steels that Spyderco is using also chipping. I'm not hearing that about D-2, S90V, VG-10, M-4 or any of the other steels currently in use. Also I never heard that about it's CPM predecessor 440V (S60V).

Selective hearing may be part of it. Pretty sure at least one of the reasons Spyderco dropped 440V and switched to S30V was the "forum buzz" that 440V chipped if you looked at it crooked. There are posts right here in this thread where folks said VG-10 chipped. Know I've read posts on this forum and the Spyderco forum regarding ZDP-189 chipping too. I know I've chipped both of them a few times, but it was no big deal. They were tiny chips that sharpened out easily, certainly nothing I felt the need to write about. Think that's been the case with most of the chips reported, they've almost always been laughably small. The "difference" has been that the folks it happened to were surprised, shocked, and sometimes indignant that it happened at all.

The other three steels you mention have only been used a few times each, mostly in limited editions. Two of them are also non-stainless steels. Am no steel expert but perhaps that means no/fewer/smaller carbides to chip out. Stands to reason, at least to me, there would be more reports of the most commonly used steels chipping than there would be about steels used only rarely.

Paul

My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Kiwimania ---- Spydiewiki
Dead horses beaten, sacred cows tipped, chimeras hunted when time permits.
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
It's easy to grin when your ship comes in and good fortune and fame are your lot, but the man worthwhile is the man who can smile with his shorts twisted up in a knot. - Morey Amsterdam

 

[Don M]

There is a very good explanation for the chipping observed with factory new blades, and then no more problems after a good sharpening or two. S30V is very prone to forming a tenacious burr or wire edge, especially when using machinery to sharpen the blade, as I expect they do in the factory. If this burr is not removed at the factory, it will feel very sharp, but that burr will chip easily on relatively soft materials. A good sharpening or two will get rid of that burr.

Perhaps this does not explain all of the reported issues, but I suspect it explains a lot of them.

 

[Cisco Kid]

There is a very good explanation for the chipping observed with factory new blades, and then no more problems after a good sharpening or two. S30V is very prone to forming a tenacious burr or wire edge, especially when using machinery to sharpen the blade, as I expect they do in the factory. If this burr is not removed at the factory, it will feel very sharp, but that burr will chip easily on relatively soft materials. A good sharpening or two will get rid of that burr.

Perhaps this does not explain all of the reported issues, but I suspect it explains a lot of them.

Interesting hypothesis, except that I've never seen a burr on Spyderco's factory-new edges.

Yes, I always inspect my new knives on a 400x microscope.

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

I could go along with that theory except for one big elephant that won't leave the living room>> Then why aren't all the other blade steels that Spyderco is using also chipping. I'm not hearing that about D-2, S90V, VG-10, M-4 or any of the other steels currently in use. Also I never heard that about it's CPM predecessor 440V (S60V).

With all due respect "FlaMtnBkr" I don't think that's the problem. Because back when I first heard reports of S30V chipping about 3 to 4 years ago I was also hearing about another steel chipping and some of the guys at CPM were saying that S30V and a couple of other blade steels were very difficult to heat treat properly. I've heard that D-2 is so difficult is why many knife companies won't use it.

I also thought that it might have been bad batches but there are so many S30V blades that have failed people that I now just have to believe it has some very bad performance aspects to it.

As you said they are different steels and each has it's own heat treating process. I don't know how each steel behaves and what the heat treating process is. But surely S30V could be effected by overheating at the edge differently than other steels and cause the steel to get more brittle and chip prone.

It sounds like you have a grudge against the steel but there are lots of people who love it and have no problems. I'm sure there are many more people who love it than hate it or it wouldn't be so popular. I know I had chipping issues on 1 S30V knife and after the chips were sharpened out and new metal exposed it never happened again. In fact a more acute angle was put on it so it should have been even more delicate. The knife turned into my hard use 'beater' and has been border line abused and still no more chipping has occurred. It is still the same piece of metal so I don't know what changed other than 'bad' steel being removed. Over heating is a logical assumption to why only the original edge chips and then goes away.

 

[bodankers]

Same here I've literally abused 3 of my VG-10 Spyders that I use for outdoor purposes and I've yet to have one chip. I never even ever had Spyderco's kitchen knife steel MBS-26 ever chip. And GOD Know's I've been very rough on my MBS-26 Spyders.

The only 2 user Spyders I had with S30V just didn't hold an edge as good as any of my 440V Spyders ever did either. And I could name off 10 more blade steels I've used of theirs that never chipped.

And I was surprised because of the good luck I had with 440V ( S30V's predecessor). It's either in the heat treating or other properties that need to be studied.

I totally agree with you here JD, I've honestly had nothing but disappointment with S30V being used on "work knives" so much so that I no longer really entertain the idea of purchasing any S30v blades anymore. CPM's 440V has performed like an absolute trooper for me, I have nothing but compliments for CPM's D2, S90V and M4 also. Though for a general use steel I'd rather have VG10 over S30v any day.

Bo ...aka Jezabel.

 

[dsvirsky]

Pretty much any of the large, hard ( evil!) carbide containing steels are susceptible to chipping as shown in the picture with the factory type coarse grind. Those grinds feel very scary when we touch them, and do a great job cutting out of the boxbut the chips are the downside.

When taken up to a higher finish such as on the sharpmaker, or DMT, India stones those chips will pretty much stop, untill the edge gets too thin to support the load, or if misused by twisting out of cuts, or some such other contributor.

There is a very good explanation for the chipping observed with factory new blades, and then no more problems after a good sharpening or two. S30V is very prone to forming a tenacious burr or wire edge, especially when using machinery to sharpen the blade, as I expect they do in the factory. If this burr is not removed at the factory, it will feel very sharp, but that burr will chip easily on relatively soft materials. A good sharpening or two will get rid of that burr.

Interesting hypothesis, except that I've never seen a burr on Spyderco's factory-new edges.

Jerry Hossom, who knows a thing or two about knives and steel, used to be a firm supporter of the theory that S30V required a polished edge to avoid chipping. However, on another forum, he reported that someone (Wayne Goddard IIRC) showed him that the problem was, in fact, not the degree of polish but the failure to completely remove the burr on less polished edges. I bring this up because, to my eyes, the picture posted by bigmo66 does show an edge with a burr. Notwithstanding Cisco Kid's good fortune (and 400x review), I've received Spydies with a burr on the factory edge (my S30V Paramilitary comes to mind, but it's not alone) that required no magnification to see.

I might also note that I own a number of knives in S30V, some production, some custom; heat treated by Spyderco, heat treated by Paul Bos, heat treated by the knifemaker -- including one made in Brazil. I haven't experienced any issues with edge damage/chipping beyond what I've experienced with other steels (and I have knives in about 2 dozen different steels in my collection).