S30v, Cpm-154cm, Vg-10, D-2????

C

cboglio

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Feb 6, 2006
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I just got a Spyderco Navtive II, mainly for and EDC and the S30V steel. But now I am reading that S30V is not as great compared to the the rest of these (154CM, VG-10, D-2, ATS-34). I was looking to buy a Benchmade (D-2 or 154CM steel) or the Spyderco Native II (S30V steel). Sould I got back and return the knife for better steel?

I know that every steel has it's pros and cons, however how would you rank overall preformance of these different steels? And what makes their ranking?

Thanks
 
Keep it. Learn how it works for your purposes. How it feels in your hand and does the job you want to do with it are the most important characterisitics, not the type of steel, IMHO.
 
I have used knives of each of the steels you mention. They are all excellent for cutting [don't know about pry bars] I prefer S30V but they are all very close in performance.My ranking would be S30V, 154CM/ATS-34, VG-10, D2.
 
Spyderco sharpens their knives by hand, so they vary by a few degrees, but they are all pretty close to 15 deg. per side.

Well, I would say, the jury is still out on this one. Phil Wilson, who certainly knows a bit about bladesteels, still thinks that S30V is the steel that offers the best trade-of for any non-chopping type blade. I would say that it is still considered one of the premium bladesteels. CPM-154 is still very rarely used. 154CM has a loyal following, but it is not as wear resistant as S30V and not as fine grained either. VG-10 is a favorite for many but it is not as wear resistant and according to the numbers not tougher either, and D2 is only marginally stainless, not very fine grained, nor very tough, but very wear resistant.

In the end it boils down to you presonal preference. Which brings me to your question about ranking steels. There is no such thing as a "steel ranking". All you can do is to compare certain characteristics, such as hardness, toughness, wear resistance, ductility, corrosion resistance, just to name the most obvious and then make a decision where you want to put you trade-of, since it is impossible to optimize all characteristics at the same time (although, compared to a poor steel, it is possible for a good blade steel to excel in serveral categories at once). The other "ranking" is simply the combined experience of the people frequenting this forum.

However, there is one thing that most people on this forum would agree with: That the Native II is currently probably THE best deal in the knife market today.
 
I am not aware of any dispute of the superiority of S30V steel over any of the alloys you listed. It is better than all of them.
154CM would be #2 on my list, with the new, CPM version well above the conventionally processed 154CM material.

I would rank D2 over ATS34, because in my experience ATS34 steel had impurities in it that caused pitting, as well as a poor microstructure.
Yes, I paid to have photomicrographs taken of the heat treated steels.....<G>

Even in the recent magazine article about CPM154CM and 154CM, Scott Devanna from Crucible plainly states that CPMS30V is a superior steel.

S30V is great stuff.
 
Ah, another steel question. The sad truth is that any of the steels in current manufactured knives is as good as the average user will ever need. Nuts like myself and a few others can get just ugly over steel. S30V is as fine a steel as you can find today. Matter of fact, all that you mentioned are great steels. But the real difference you will ever see, is small and rare. If you have a knife with S30V, rejoice and be happy. And don't become part of the never ending circle of knife steel.
 
HoB said:
Phil Wilson, who certainly knows a bit about bladesteels, still thinks that S30V is the steel that offers the best trade-of for any non-chopping type blade.
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It probably is with his hardening, I got one to work with coming. I am also interesting in Swamp Rat's S30V. Though if you are not chopping I'd go with S125V at 65 HRC, oil quench, deep cryo, temper low to hit the maximal toughness/strength compromize. Most would have problems with sharpening that though, and it would likely not be forgiving to sloppy use.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Though if you are not chopping I'd go with S125V at 65 HRC, oil quench, deep cryo, temper low to hit the maximal toughness/strength compromize. -Cliff
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Sounds lovely :)! But where would I find such an animal. Sounds like custom work to me!?:grumpy:
 
rj martin said:
I am not aware of any dispute of the superiority of S30V steel over any of the alloys you listed. It is better than all of them.
154CM would be #2 on my list, with the new, CPM version well above the conventionally processed 154CM material.

I would rank D2 over ATS34,
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RJ,

Do you think 154CM does anything better than D2 besides rust resistance? Are you picking 154CM over D2 because you think the strength, toughness, and wear-resistance penalties are worth the wear resistance, or are you seeing better properties out of 154CM?

My impression is that S30V is today where ATS-34 was years ago. That is, custom makers who have figured out how to heat treat it and carefully control the process are seeing amazing things. Meanwhile, if you buy from a production company, it's a crap shoot: there are a lot of variables in a big industrial oven, and big differences in quality control between companies. Note the widespread reports of S30V from production companies chipping readily until the first sharpening, when apparently-damaged outer layer is scraped away. Also note Phil Wilson's latest comments on how carefully S30V needs to be controlled.

It's always difficult to avoid conflating the experience with a well-done heat treat versus the experience with a bad one. Based on my experience with production knives, ignoring any particularly great experiences with custom knives, I'd probably rank 154-CM and ATS-34 at the bottom of the heap (though still great), and D-2 at the top, for a sport-utility folder. But even now I can't be sure my impression of D-2 isn't biased by a well-done custom.

Joe
 
Joe Talmadge said:
That is, custom makers who have figured out how to heat treat it and carefully control the process are seeing amazing things. Meanwhile, if you buy from a production company, it's a crap shoot: there are a lot of variables in a big industrial oven, and big differences in quality control between companies.
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There have not been a lot of reports of S30V problems with customs, however just look at the massive difference in the number of production vs custom knives in S30V and even more important the actual percentage of blades of both being significantly used. These two ratios would basically have to be used to scale the failure rates reported.

Not that I disagree with your conclusions, but personally I am hesitant to finalize it yet, especially in regards to toughness. There have been no problems with Swamp Rat's S30V for example, but does this mean they are actually better than the RSK's from Benchmade or just that this is a *massive* greater amount of RSK's being used.

The problems don't always go away with sharpening either, I have a RSK now which I have full sharpened three times, right down to x-coarse SiC and reset, removing all damage, it actually breaks apart under finer hones, and even deforms in other sections. Edge retention is really low, a few cuts into hardwood and it is reflecting light.

This is also actually a replacement for a defective RSK, user had the same problem with this one as with the first one, edge damaged readily upon use. Second time I have seen this exact same problem with a Benchmade, the last was with a Skirmish.

-Cliff
 
Joe and I see things a lot the same. I remember when Bob Loveless introduced the wonder steel, 154CM, essentially ATS34 today which he went to after not caring for the lack of vacuum melt with US steel. However, I have always felt D2 is one of the great steels. Maybe when I worked with Jimmy Lile and that was what we used but it has stood up well to time. I like A2 a lot too but it will tarnish even more quickly than D2. However, most factory steels are just fine for the average guy. We all know this and that but seldom use a knife to the potential of the steel making the difference. Buck can use 420HC forever and it will satisfy most of the folks there. But, for those that do, those that really know the difference and those who want, the choice is yours. I think S30V is a fine steel. However, I will still take my D2 blades and I know the result.
 
I have had mixed results with S30V. Spyderco has been the best in that steel compared to other production knives, other production knives have been ok to horrible. In VG 10, I've only had Spyderco knives, and they have all been wonderful. In D2, I've had good luck from both production and custom, as long as you don't thin the edge down below 20 degrees.

All of the above comments are about edge retention when cutting soft to abrasive materials such as wood and cardboard.

If I were *only* looking at edge retention of the 3, D2 would get the nod. For all around use, I'd take VG 10. If you've already gotten the Native, I'd keep it unless you have problems. For me, S30V has been a crap shoot.
 
Whoa, Now I am really torn! I thought that S30V was going to be the best all around bet, compared to the 154CM or D2. I am not so much concerned about the stainless fact of the S30V because I live in Arizona and I keep by knife really clean and dry. But I am concerned about keeping an edge and staying sharp. I don't do a lot of hacking or chopping, mostly cuting card board, plastics, things of that nature.

Maybe some of the previous posts are right "the average person can't tell the difference between the steels". And I am definately average.
 
sodak said:
I have had mixed results with S30V.
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So have I. I have handled two defects from Benchmade, could not even sharpen them without chipping, seen solid performance from Spydero, and very nice performance from Reeve in the Sebenza in terms of sharpening and edge retention on soft materials, but horrible on even moderate ones like plywood could not even keep up with a Byrd. Had two Green Berets in S30V at ~55 HRC which were among the worst stainless steels knives seen (durability).


In D2, I've had good luck from both production and custom, as long as you don't thin the edge down below 20 degrees.
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Inclusive?

cboglio said:
Maybe some of the previous posts are right "the average person can't tell the difference between the steels". And I am definately average.
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If you cut a decent amount of cardboard you can readily see a difference between AUS-8A / ATS-34 / S30V in regards to slicing sharpness as it is dependent on wear resistance. However on other tasks they are much closer especially if they are all ran at the same hardness.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Inclusive?
-Cliff
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I winced when I hit the enter key, because I *knew* you were going to ask that. Yeah, inclusive. One night I had a little too much Yukon Jack (dang those hoary nights!) and pulled out my Queen 4180 and thought, "let's go for it". Half an hour later, I had it down. Way too much. If you really want a scare, take a nice D2 blade down to 15 inclusive and see what happens with mild torquing in wood. Not pretty. That's when I started backing off and getting sensible. Actually, I took out my Dozier and started measuring it with calipers, and tried to duplicate the shoulder thickness with a secondary bevel, and then I quit taking scallops out of my blade. Oh well, live and learn.

And don't touch knives and Yukon on the same night....:D
 
sodak said:
If you really want a scare, take a nice D2 blade down to 15 inclusive and see what happens with mild torquing in wood.
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Yes, nice cutting steel, but not for low edges, unless you are cutting really soft media and even then there are other steels I would pick. For wood working knives, wear resistance is pretty low as woods are not arbasive, you want very high strength and a very fine grain structure. Something like 440A would likely be better than D2 with a proper heat treatment at very low angles (assuming you want corrosion resistance otherwise just use M2). The wear resistance of D2 isn't going to help if the edge cracks off.

-Cliff
 
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