S30V or D2 for a custom fixed blade?

[bladeprince]

Which would you choose? S30V or D2 for a custom fixed blade? I just ordered one a couple days ago with S30V but there is plenty of time to change my mind. Probabaly a least a couple of months...lol.

The blade is only 3 1/2", if that would make any different in ones choice. The knifemaker was telling me to go with D2. He thought it was the better steel and he's been making knive for over 20 years.

The was a D2 thread on this forum not long ago and the I think the title was "D2 Sucks". I told him about some people being able to get a really good edge and he thought that was BS. I have a BM AFCK in D2 and I got it as sharp as any of my S30V knives.

I also read a study (can't find it now) that D2 cut more then twice as much as much as any other steel. Can't remember the details of what was cut or the time limit but I do remember that quote.

The price is about $250 so since I have a choice in steel type, I'd like to choose the best one.

Any input and why?

Regards and thanks

 

[bill_G]

either one is good....but trust the guy who is making the knife for you. if he says D2 is the way to go....TRUST him. not every knifemaker is good in all steels. he may feel that his heat treat of D2 is better than his heat treat of S30v.

 

[JD Mandrell]

I've not used s30v enough to really comment on it, but I have several knives in D2 factory and custom and like it alot.

And anyone that thinks it's "BS" that you can get a really sharp edge on D2, maybe needs to brush up on his sharpening skills. D2 can be as sharp as any other steel.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

And anyone that thinks it's "BS" that you can get a really sharp edge on D2, maybe needs to brush up on his sharpening skills. D2 can be as sharp as any other steel.

If this is the case then the person making such claims has a very low standard of sharpness, or runs fairly obtuse profiles, or very coarse edges, or a combination of all three. Try comparing D2 and M2 at five degrees per side with a 0.5 micron finish and seeing if the above holds. The primary chroimum rich carbides in D2 are much larger than 10 microns in size and they prevent the formation of acute edges at a high polish. The also degrade push cutting edge retention for the same reasons, carbide tear out. See the work by Landes and Verhoeven, and the user data of Johnston, Sodak, etc. .

-Cliff

 

[Django606]

I think, since he commented about the "D2 Sucks" thread, that he meant to say people were NOT able to get good edges on D2. The knifemaker then responded to this with "BS".

 

[JD Mandrell]

See the work by Landes and Verhoeven, and the user data of Johnston, Sodak, etc. . -Cliff

I have no need to, I use and sharpen my own D2 knives, first hand experience carries much more weight than second hand opinions to me.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Then as noted your standards for sharpness are low, your edges are obtuse, your edges are coarse or some combination of those three. You can of course ignore the objective reality of the actual quantitative work done by the above who have determined sharpness objectively and in published works and in those regards, as noted, D2 is directly inferior. If you feel they are actually ignoring some method you have deduced to overcome the grain size and carbide segregation limits of D2 then by all means enlighten them as well as the rest of us. This was one of the subjects of Landes PhD thesis so he would definately be interested in someone claiming he needs to make a retraction on the grounds of incompetence.

-Cliff

 

[sjahn]

D2 would be a good choice. I've used several S30V knives, and they're good. But, I got to use a D2 knife recently, and I love it. Also, as Bill_G said, if the knife maker recommended D2 over S30V, it'd be better follow his recommendation. S30V and D2, both are good steels. It's hard to choose from, I say, but when a knife maker favors one, I'd follow his recommendation.

My D2 knife has less than 2" blade. While I love it, I sometimes think that D2 on short blade wouldn't be that great. Since the blade's so short, I prefer it to be thin profiled with acute angle to have greater cutting ability, especially push cutting, but as others pointed out, D2 with acute angle does not seem to work that well (I have trouble, I admit). You said your blade is 3 1/2", I think D2 blade would work fine.
For me, I'd work on edge profile and sharpening skill more. Need to find what works for me best.

Hope you'd get a lovely knife.

 

[Kohai999]

Instead of arguing that someone who sharpens their own knife that they use for purposes that have not yet been stated, why don't you:

1. Ask more questions of people when they make statements, so your response can be specifically tailored or...

b. Make your own steel recommendations once the original poster reveals the name of the custom maker, and what he wants to do with the knife?

A while ago, I made a post tailored to the thought processes of the newbies in getting new knives, and the intended use for the knife was specifically mentioned as a major factor.

Bladeprince, what kind of knife is it going to be, what stock thickness, what kind of grind, and who is making it? Answer these questions, as best you can, and Cliff and the rest of the resident experts can make a qualified recommendation.

I still like 440C or ATS-34/154CM for stock removal knives, and am very partial to W2 and 1086M for forged blades, but these steels work for MY needs, and the makers that I have knives from that work with these steels are very methodical about heat treatment.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... why don't you...

The initial post contains a false presupposition, until that is removed you can't proceed. D2 has known problems due to the grain size and carbide segregation, both of those are measured readily. These also have a direct influence on the performance of the knife in several respects, including the sharpness and durability at low angles. If you want to ignore all of this and continue in fantasy and hype then it is pointless to ask questions of use, which I have always made a point of doing, because there is no basis upon which to make objective decisions.

-Cliff

 

[JD Mandrell]

This is bladeprince's thread asking for feedback on steels for his needs.

As usual, Cliff wants to hijack it and start an arugement, which I am not going to prolong by participating in.

My apologies to bladeprince for the distraction.

 

[Larrin]

For my own laziness, I would choose S30V just for it being completely stainless. I know that D2 is often called "semi-stainless" and all that, but if I have a choice between "semi-stainless" and stainless, I'll pick the latter. From my small experience with S30V (a small Sebenza), it seems that it has plenty of toughness for a small fixed blade in most applications (though the small sebenza is definitely not a fixed blade ), and all of the testing data by Crucible puts D2 and S30V about the same in longitudinal toughness, and the edge goes to S30V in transverse. In Phil Wilson's rope cutting testing, and CATRA testing by Sal Glesser, it also appears that S30V holds an edge longer. I've never used a D2 knife, but due to large carbides, carbide pullout, etc., I would pick S30V for sharpness as well.

Both are good steels. If cost is an issue, and the D2 knife is considerably cheaper, than get D2. If it is two different knives (sorry if you already said it's the same knife, I don't remember now), and you like the design of one or the other better, than pick your preferred design, not the steel. And like someone said earlier, if the maker prefers one steel over the other, than get the one the maker prefers, obviously the maker gets better/more consistent results with one steel over the other.

 

[sodak]

Answering this question (for me) would depend on heat treat, geometry, and the maker's experience. I tend to lean towards D2, but don't thin the edge out too much.

I like the way Dozier grinds and heat treats his D2. His geometry (especially the hollow ground knives) pretty much take D2 to it's upper performance limit, as far as I've seen. He sets the bar pretty high.

I would ask what hardness the maker takes S30V to. I've seen knives start out at 57 HRC taken up to around 60 or 61, and it changes the edge holding like you wouldn't believe. I don't know how it affects toughness or strength, but if you want edge retention, take S30V up to 60, it will give D2 a run for it's money.

 

[Kohai999]

The initial post contains a false presupposition, until that is removed you can't proceed. D2 has known problems due to the grain size and carbide segregation, both of those are measured readily. These also have a direct influence on the performance of the knife in several respects, including the sharpness and durability at low angles. If you want to ignore all of this and continue in fantasy and hype then it is pointless to ask questions of use, which I have always made a point of doing, because there is no basis upon which to make objective decisions.

-Cliff

Ok, so you can advise the poster of the known problems in D2 by saying that grain size and carbide segregation(and giving a one sentence definition of these terms) adversly affect performance, and ask more questions and then give a response.

Have you ever considered that your use of the big words confuses people?

I don't personally ignore anything, and I rather like D2 in the folding Queen stockman's(stockmen? ) that I own because it resists rusting better than say, 1095, and that is a factor for ME in a pocketknife. Rust will kill an edge as easily as abrasive materials, and aesthetics matter to me, but not YOU because you are ONLY interested in performance. Hype and fantasy have no place in my collection.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Cliff Stamp]

As usual, Cliff wants to hijack it and start an arugement...

You are the one who interjected interferences of incompetence on the part of those with a perspective of issues with D2 and sharpness. I was correcting your misinformation with actual published facts and objective and comparative user reports. Hardly hijacking a thread on two steels to actually provide relevant materials data and objective factual considerations.

...all of the testing data by Crucible puts D2 and S30V about the same in longitudinal toughness, and the edge goes to S30V in transverse.

Which steel is Crucible trying to sell strongly, especially to knifemakers? Have you talked to other steel manufacturers and asked them their opinion of their D2 vs Crucibles S30V to get the other side of the arguement? How come Dozier has not switched for example?

In Phil Wilson's rope cutting testing, and CATRA testing by Sal Glesser, it also appears that S30V holds an edge longer.

Phil has compared D2 at 58 HRC to S30V at 60 HRC. He notes that he doesn't like D2 any harder because of durability issues but Phil grinds way thinner than most. He actually calls edges thick when other makers would consider them too thin. You really can't use his results to infer general properties because of the massive difference in geometry.

I like the way Dozier grinds and heat treats his D2. His geometry (especially the hollow ground knives) pretty much take D2 to it's upper performance limit, as far as I've seen.

I like Dozier's use of D2 as well. Mel Sorg also had nice D2 blades, very thin flat ground blades with a convex edge. He ran them harder than most, including Dozier. I'd personally like to see it at 64/65 with oil/cold and see how it works slicing soft materials. I don't imagine it would work well for harder cutting but inherently it isn't a steel which is designed for that anyway.

At the "standard" way these steels are heat treated they are very similar materials, both are high wear, high primary carbide fraction and high chromium steels. S30V should be able to take finer edges with less tear out through a reduction in chromium rich carbides due to the vanadium but user feedback certainly doesn't seem that way. It is more corrosion resistant in all blades I have seen.

I am going to refine the edge on my Safari Skinner shortly to under 10 and see how it compares to the South Fork in S30V at a similar angle and see which one falls apart first in push cutting. I might benchmark them against my Ratweiler because the edge is almost that acute and with a full flat sharpening with no convexing it can reach 9-11 per side.

Rust will kill an edge as easily as abrasive materials ...

I have some nice carbon steel kitchen knives and the edge holding is horrible on acidic fruits and vegetables for that reason. In general though I have not found it to be an issue and I live right next to the ocean, but it is rarely hot/humid here.

-Cliff

 

[patrickjames]

I don't know about actual sharpness,But the roughness of a sharp D2 blade cuts through flesh really good.when I bought My Dozier they was very sharp ,but I could feel a little roughness to the blade.Man oh Man,you can really skin a deer in a hurry
pj

 

[patrickjames]

Cliff
I love you ,but your sure tech-anal
pj

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I don't know about actual sharpness,But the roughness of a sharp D2 blade cuts through flesh really good.when I bought My Dozier they was very sharp ,but I could feel a little roughness to the blade.Man oh Man,you can really skin a deer in a hurry

I think one of the problems is realizing the sharpness for slicing is very different than sharpness for push cutting, thus someone like Landes can look at a blade and say it isn't very sharp but someone like Dozier would argue it is because they are talking about different types of cutting. While you can increase both aspects at the same time you can also increase one and decrease the other. It also depends on edge angle as well which complicates the matters when users and makers run different profiles as you won't get the same results sharpening at 5-10 degrees as you do at 15-20. I personally like D2 as an aggressive steel for coarse edges for extended slicing and you can take it really low (five degrees) if you don't side load it and only cut soft materials.

-Cliff

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Which would you choose? S30V or D2 for a custom fixed blade? I just ordered one a couple days ago with S30V but there is plenty of time to change my mind. Probabaly a least a couple of months...lol.

The blade is only 3 1/2", if that would make any different in ones choice. The knifemaker was telling me to go with D2. He thought it was the better steel and he's been making knive for over 20 years.

BP, you left out an important point, which is, what this knife is for. I'll assume it's general purpose EDC uses, and if that's not the case, my answer might change.

First and most importantly, most makers know what they're best at. This maker probably knows he's better at heat treating D2 than S30V (assuming he does his own heat treat), so I'd give that some weight.

Next, I believe what Cliff says is all technically correct, and if you're thinking of bringing your D2 blade to 5 degrees per side, D2's a bad choice. If, however, you tend to leave your edge at, say, 15 degrees per side (which many people think is a performance edge but for Cliff is obtuse and non-performant for this type of knife), then you'll find no problems with D2. It's a matter of whether you're going to push the performance envelope, like Cliff, or just set it up at a convenient angle for your Sharpmaker or Lansky.

So, with all that in mind: if I were getting a small knife for general purpose EDC use, running it at 15 degrees per side, I'd probably have the maker use D2 and run it hard (61 Rc). Honestly, S30V is a very comparable answer, so I would switch to that even for a reason as basic as "I want more rust resistance".

Joe

 

[SpyderJon]

While we do need more info, and others are correct that the maker knows his skill set and what he's better at, I'll give my limited experience with D2. It is the only steel I've ever had rust on me. If it didn't have a constant coating of oil on it there was a spot of rust before the day was out. It was very troubling to me, so I got rid of the knife and haven't had a D2 knife since. I'll say that others have had better experiences than I have with this steel and most people are very happy with it. Personally, then, based on my experience ONLY I'd go with S30V. Just to have better corrosion resistence. By the by, I don't neglect my knives either, and have had everything from 1095 to O1 and NEVER had a problem with spotting/pitting/rusting. Just with that ONE knife. I DID get another of that knife in 440C, and it has been a trusted companion.

Good luck, and let us know what you're getting!