S30V or D2?

[Steven Andrews]

I went for a #13 in S30V..it is due in six weeks - I can't wait!!!


I went for S30V because I have other knives in that steel (Sebenza, Ritter Grips) and know that I like it.

I have no experience of D2

 

[Chett]

I would go with S30v

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Ron told me he has broken hollow grind knives in the field.

He promotes others though like TOP's, it depends on the cross section.

With the type of grinds and edges you prefer, you be best suited to use something that contains a razor blade.

Not for the work described in the above (fire and shelter building an in amergency), it would be way too inefficient.

I could build a shelter and start a fire with one of my small EDC hollows, but it would take a long time compared to something like this :

http://www.rakerknives.com/Bebach Bowie.jpg

I like full hollows on high alloy very hard steels for pure cutting knives, flat for general utility and full convex for heavy choppers (parang class) in low alloy steels maximized for toughness.

-Cliff

 

[Gossman Knives]

I like full hollows on high alloy very hard steels for pure cutting knives, flat for general utility and full convex for heavy choppers (parang class) in low alloy steels maximized for toughness.

-Cliff

Sounds like your line up is on the money. Even though I prefer a convex grind, I do upon request, hollow grind and flat grind. I personally like a convex better and if I need a slicer/cutter I'll go with thinner steel. Sorry for the hijack Merlin.
Scott

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... though I prefer a convex grind..

I like the cutting ability, I have a couple of nice full convex customs, I just prefer ease of sharpening of hollows.

I don't mind sharpening the large parangs because they blunt so slowly on wods I don't mind spending 10-15 minutes after a week's work.

However on a small blade which sees a lot of cutting on hard and abrasive materials I like to run hollows so I can sharpen the edge quickly even with a full reset.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

I do not consider S30V to be tougher than D2 based on my own experiences and those I've read from other owners here and on the other forums. D2 keeps an edge better, is no harder to sharpen and seems to be every bit as stain resistant as S30V so to me the choice is clear.

I also believe that you can grind D2 thinner and still have a knife as tough as another steel ground thicker. Bob Dozier's grinds prove just how thin you can make the D2 steel and get away with it. Most of his work is from 1/8" thick stock. Some 3/16" and no thicker.

It seems to me that D2 can be brittle but much of this is due to the thin grinds you usually see with it from the people using it. I have been fixing D2 points on D2 blades in my shop since people first starting using it to make knives. All from broken off tips and everyone of them was ground very thin when made. I have never seen D2 edge chipping like I have seen in S30V.

If say one was to make a camp knife of D2 in a 3/16" thick bar stock or perhaps thicker and not grind it so thin I believe it would be more than capable of keeping up with the other steels mentioned and perhaps surpass them in performance.

 

[Tom Krein]

I would recommend the D-2 unless you need the extra stainresistance S30V has. S30V prices have gone up markedly so it will be more expensive.

Tom

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I also believe that you can grind D2 thinner and still have a knife as tough as another steel ground thicker.

This implies it is tougher which is rare as D2 is one of the more brittle tool steels and similar to the high carbon stainless steels.

Bob Dozier's grinds prove just how thin you can make the D2 steel and get away with it.

Dozier is pretty clear on restricted scope of work of his knives. Though they occasion get some hype from users, Dozier is quick to point out they are designed to be precision cutting tools which cut well and stay sharp, not high impact prybars.

Which is fairly rare actually, a lot of makers will tend to let user hype fly and allow their knives to be over promoted, but Dozier doesn't and is fairly straightforward in saying what they are designed to do, I wish more people did the same.

-Cliff

 

[Artfully Martial]

I have two different D2 benchmades and they're cutting machines. I hear about brittleness of D2, but at least my Cabela's minigrip has seen serious cutting and totally shrugged it off. I've never had cardboard destroying capability like my D2 41MC (including my VG10 stuff). No rust issues at all so far.
So basically, I love D2.

But I can't wait to try S30V either.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I hear about brittleness of D2 ...

This usually isn't in regards to small folders but larger blades, you are not going to have problems cutting most materials, it is impacts and torques that are problematic, especially with larger blades.

-Cliff

 

[Ryan8]

S30V prices have gone up markedly so it will be more expensive.

Out of curiosity, why is this?

 

[STR]

This implies it is tougher which is rare as D2 is one of the more brittle tool steels and similar to the high carbon stainless steels.

This coming from the guy that broke a D2 point on a Dozier knife in one of his tests and then argued with me repeatedly in denial when I pointed out that D2 was known for being a brittle steel.

D2 is known for being brittle: mostly at the tip where they break often based on my experiences with it fixing them for guys when I sharpen them. But it is wear resistant and capable of being ground very thin so it has some toughness. Not A2 or 5160 by any stretch of the imagination but still enough to get by.

I imagine that in a thicker blade D2 would suffice for most people except for guys like Cliff maybe that beat them up for reviews. I agree though that it is not the first choice I'd go with when you compare it to the many better choices but lets not confuse the discussion with the other choices. The comparison here is between D2 and S30V. When compared to that steel and that steel alone I'd certainly pick D2 hands down and that is all I was saying. The Kershaw Outcast has some good reviews going for it and it is 3/16" thick D2.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

This coming from the guy that broke a D2 point on a Dozier knife in one of his tests and then argued with me repeatedly in denial when I pointed out that D2 was known for being a brittle steel.

Interesting paraphrase, to clearify, you stated D2 was so brittle that Dozier's blades could be expected to snap if you just stabbed them into wood or dropped them on the floor :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3021131&postcount=35

I contended this was not my experience, it is not a tough steel, but it isn't that brittle. I have seen better toughness out of the A.G. Russel Deerhunter in D2 which is way thinner than anything Dozier grinds.

But it is wear resistant and capable of being ground very thin so it has some toughness.

I have an M2 blade at 65 HRC which is extremely wear resistant and fully hollow ground on 0.060" thick stock, it isn't a tough steel.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

I know of guys that have broken D2 as well as S30V blades by dropping them Cliff. Anything that hard can snap if it hits another hard object the right way, no different than dropping a file on the floor. You should know that as well as anyone. And I did not post the link so I would not derail the thread but try to stay somewhat on topic. I couldn't help but make note of your now saying D2 is brittle when before oh no, not brittle. You even went so far as to say I brought undo attention to it's brittleness as I recall.

BTW, no I did not say that "Dozier's" knives were so brittle that you could expect them to break if you dropped them on the floor. I said I know people that have broken his knives by dropping them but not just his knives and I referred to D2 in general not specifically Bob's knives. Read it again.

Everything I said there is valid and I stand by that. D2 is not my first choice in a tactical or camp tool but neither is S30V. D2 would be my pick over S30V though and for that matter S30V seems easier to break than D2 from what I've read.

You point out the D2 A.G.Russel knife as being thinner than Dozier's knives which may be true. My point was that D2 was a great choice for a blade you want to grind thin. That is why you most always see D2 knives like my Ka-Bar Dozier designed Thorn folder so thinnly ground to a delicate edge. You can get away with it with that steel. DAH! My point exactly. You would be pushing the limits of the steel to be that thin on an S30V blade and even other steels too.

M2 is another that can be ground thin, but what happens if you make an M2 or D2 blade and leave it thick? Suddenly it isn't half bad for more than just cutting but still can be prone to problems not seen in other steels, which is why it would not be my first choice except in this thread comparison parameter between D2 and S30V.

I just found it amusing that you now have no problem saying that D2 is brittle but before you were all but fighting me when I posted a nearly identical statement.

 

[merlin]

quote:
"D2 is not my first choice in a tactical or camp tool but neither is S30V."

So what would be your first choice? And where might I find a knife to fit my needs in this steel?

Thanks!

 

[STR]

For a handmade I would get something in 5160 steel and gun kote it as a first choice or have the maker do it for you. Scott makes some great knives in 5160. (Razorback)

Maybe a Camp Tramp from Busse as a second choice if I just wanted a production knife (or semi production).

D2 is a great cutter and they make excellent skinner knives and hunting knives but when say making a shelter or chopping up some kindling or fire wood and stuff like that you do run the chance of maybe chipping out the edge or breaking a point if it hits wrong or gets dropped. I don't know how much abuse they can take if you were to baton them. You could probably get away with light batoning but serious would probably amount to nothing but trouble. This is especially true if the grind is thin as most of the D2 blades are and when ground so thin they are not very good for serious chopping anyways because there is no weight to them so the only way to get through a log would be to baton it.

5160 is a tough ass steel IMO.

EDIT: I should add that for production knives Bark River makes some great outdoor knives also and for reasonable prices. If a smaller tip heavy blade is what you want look over some of their convexed A2 blades. Due to the grind, weight and toughness of the A2 they perform bigger than they are for many tasks.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I know of guys that have broken D2 as well as S30V blades by dropping them Cliff.

I have seen dozens of bad breaks on many knives, that isn't the expected behavior of D2 though. Ask Dozier or any other maker if their D2 blades will break if you just accidently drop them.

I couldn't help but make note of your now saying D2 is brittle when before oh no, not brittle.

I have always noted it was brittle, however not as brittle as you described which puts it in the same class as ceramic.

[Ka-Bar Dozier designed Thorn]

You would be pushing the limits of the steel to be that thin on an S30V blade and even other steels too.

That isn't close to the limit of how steels can be ground, my small Sebenza in S30V is way thinner than Dozier's K2 for example. The main blade on my Rucksack is really thin and the steel isn't overly special.

I have even really low end blades ground really thin, AUS-6A class steels and worse. You can grind anything thin if you want to, I have put very thin grinds on bars of mild steel.

...what happens if you make an M2 or D2 blade and leave it thick?

It doesn't cut as well, is massively stronger, is much less flexible and gains little in regards to the ability to take impact shock and ease of sharpening goes way down.

I imagine that in a thicker blade D2 would suffice for most people except for guys like Cliff...

I have lots of blades in steels far harder and that are far thinner than the D2 knives you referenced. They work very well for what they are designed to do, I would not however recommend them for heavy wood work nor would the makers that ground them.

Can I take a D2 blade and do such work, sure, I have broken enough that I know what it takes to do so and how to avoid it. I can take a Gil Hibben fantasy knife and make a shelter from it out of bad wood not just clear pine, and then chop and split wood for a fire and the knife will still be in one piece.

However it won't be very efficient process because of the lack of strength of the knife (they are decently tough but fairly weak) requires that I will have to take extreme care to reduce stress on the blade. Just like I can split wood with a felling axe if I have to, but this doesn't mean I would recommend it be used for such.

As for S30v vs D2 in regards to toughness, I have seen much worse behavior from S30V than D2 in regards to failure, but right now I am not convinced that this is the true limit of the steel as much as it is likely a heat treat issue.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

As for S30v vs D2 in regards to toughness, I have seen much worse behavior from S30V than D2 but right now I am not convinced that this is the true limit of the steel as it is just a heat treat issue.

I want to believe you here. I hope this is the situation I guess I should say. I hear and read stories on many forums of edge chipping and easy blade snapping regarding S30V. I too have seen much worse performance from S30V than anyone anticipated. Some in the know seem to think it is more to do with the size of the carbides and the structure of the steel and combinations of that and heat treating. The jury is still out on what causes it. The fact is though, unfortunate as it may be, that the steel is having qualitly control issues which is why I'd think it would be a terrible choice for a thin grind or a chopper. I believe you said yourself that it isn't a very good choice for a pry bar also. Not that any steel is with the exception of some titanium blades maybe.

I don't put D2 in the same class as ceramic. Speak for yourself there but not me. For the record D2 has a rep for tip breaks and I know personally of breaks from drops that is what I said plain and simple.

Just because you took a factory edge and reground it thinner to suit you does not mean that it is the recommended or optimal thickness for performance from that steel Cliff. Could it be that the factory maybe had a reason for the thickness they chose in the steel they use?

I could do the thinning down of a blade also with just about anything out there but that doesn't mean it will hold up or that it is a good thickness for that steel. My point was not that you could not grind another steel thin. For cryin' out loud. My point was the steel has to be able to handle it. I don't know anyone that would argue that D2 is a fine choice for a thin profiled blade, just look at what is being made out there. But it does have it's limits to how thin before it is pushing it. Does that mean you can't take another steel down that thin? Of course not. I think if I had a choice between two blades that are super thin I'd take the D2 though and certainly over S30V at least right now. Maybe later on after the issues with weakness and edge chipping get resolved (if they get resolved) I will change my mind.???

 

[Gossman Knives]

5160 is a tough ass steel IMO.

I wholeheartedly agree.............it's a kickass steel that screams beat me, beat me and beat me some more.
Scott

 

[sodak]

5160 works great in my HI Khukuris.

As for D2, I've had tips impact when dropped, but so far, no snapping. Maybe I've been lucky.

I have been finding, however, that as I'm thinning out the edges on my D2 blades, they are chipping and rippling around 15 to 18 deg (total, not per side). This is cutting and moderate torqueing in soft wood (pine). It all started when I was cutting fuzz sticks from some pitch pine sticks that I bought at Walmart. These are small rectangular pieces that aren't particularly hard or knotty. I am cutting away from me, so it's kind of like the exact opposite of scooping ice cream. I am surprised at this, and am doing some more investigation. This is happening in D2 from several different sources, not just one. I find that if I put a more obtuse microbevel on them, then this problem is resolved.

This is disappointing, as D2 is one of my favorite steels for edge retention. They still exhibit that, but I find I have to be careful with them as I thin them out. It's just that I love those thin edges.... They will cut cardboard, papers, do kitchen duty, etc., until the cows come home. I guess the lesson here is caveat emptor. I'm exploring the limits of "thinness of edges" while still maintaining robustness in wood cutting.

If you've ever whittled with a relatively thick edge and heard the "crunching", then switched to a thin edge and cleanly cut translucent ribbons of wood, then you know what I'm talking about.