S30V vs 420HC

J

jackknife

Joined
Oct 2, 2004
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A couple of years ago a friend gave me a Hartsook, and I took to carrying it as an edc unfolding pen knife. When I had a operation on my left thumb last year, it became a real edc. Since I like traditional pocket knives like slip joints, it was not easy to open a slip joint with one thumb out of action. I used that little Hartsook for just about all my daily cutting needs.

But...

I noticed that when I used it for dirty work, like cutting dirty twine off wooden posts or some other grungy stuff, it got dull a bit faster than I would have thought from the premuim steel it was made from. My Buck cadet when I used the sheepsfoot blade on the same kind of stuff, seemed to hold up just as good, if not maybe a bit better.

When I look at the edge under magnification, I can see little tiny indents like chipping, where the 420 blades show maybe a little bit of shiney spots that are flats.

Now I wonder if for daily cutting use, the Smidgeon made from 420HC would be a better steel. I wonder if there is really a benift sometimes for the premium steel? I'm not unhappy with the Hartsook edge holding, but I thought it would be lots better than 420 HC, but now I have some doubts that it's worth it. Maybe for most uses, plain old Buck 420HC, with Mr. Bos's great heat treat of course, is just fine for most of what we do with a knife in the course of our mostly suburban daily life?

Now of course I have to get a smidgon for a head to head comparison.

Thoughts on S30V?
 
I LOVE S30V :D

But with that said, of course 420HC is good for most (read all) uses, they sell more knives though if they offer more options :D

I have never griped about Bucks 420HC, but I do like the S30V and a few other upgrades better. Its all personal preference!

To me the price for a Hartsook to a smidgen is negligible at best anyway! Buy 'em both! ;)
 
It's all about the heat treat. I can have a 440C blade with a good heat treat and I can have a 154CM blade with bad heat treatment and the 440C would work better. Buck doesn't know a damn thing about heat treating blades.
 
jackknife said:
A couple of years ago a friend gave me a Hartsook, and I took to carrying it as an edc unfolding pen knife. When I had a operation on my left thumb last year, it became a real edc. Since I like traditional pocket knives like slip joints, it was not easy to open a slip joint with one thumb out of action. I used that little Hartsook for just about all my daily cutting needs.

But...

I noticed that when I used it for dirty work, like cutting dirty twine off wooden posts or some other grungy stuff, it got dull a bit faster than I would have thought from the premuim steel it was made from. My Buck cadet when I used the sheepsfoot blade on the same kind of stuff, seemed to hold up just as good, if not maybe a bit better.

When I look at the edge under magnification, I can see little tiny indents like chipping, where the 420 blades show maybe a little bit of shiney spots that are flats.

Now I wonder if for daily cutting use, the Smidgeon made from 420HC would be a better steel. I wonder if there is really a benift sometimes for the premium steel? I'm not unhappy with the Hartsook edge holding, but I thought it would be lots better than 420 HC, but now I have some doubts that it's worth it. Maybe for most uses, plain old Buck 420HC, with Mr. Bos's great heat treat of course, is just fine for most of what we do with a knife in the course of our mostly suburban daily life?

Now of course I have to get a smidgon for a head to head comparison.

Thoughts on S30V?
Click to expand...



My best guess is that S30V will hold a medium edge for much longer than 420 HC, but loses it's razor edge that you probably like faster than 420HC. That's just a guess. Who knows, I might agree with you, that 420HC is just fine.
 
Buck_110 said:
Everyone on mother earth is aware of this fact.

It's a good thing you came along when you did then!:rolleyes: You should enlighten everyone on what Buck is doing incorrectly; and suggest how their heat treating can be improved.
Click to expand...
I'm sure Rat's tongue was firmly planted in his cheek when he wrote that.
ie. tongue-in-cheek: Meant or expressed ironically or facetiously.

S30V is my current favorite, but Buck's 420HC is a good choice for many applications. For salt water activities like salmon fishing (I live on a peninsula that sticks out into salt water) 420HC is the one I'll use. I've heard that Buck hardens S30V to R 59 and 420HC to R 58, so there isn't a heck of a lot of difference. I've found S30V to hold an edge longer, but 420HC is easier (read quicker) to sharpen. I've also heard (or read that) 420HC is more corrosion resistant, but I don't have any S30V blades that seem very eager to corrode away either. Bill Keys already addressed this here:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=678953&page=3

Nuances and personal preferences, IMO
 
I think they only heat treat their 420hc steel. Their S30V is HT by Paul Boss, who is considered one of the best S30V guys out there. Kinda like Rowen and 1095.
 
Razorsharp1986 said:
I think they only heat treat their 420hc steel. Their S30V is HT by Paul Boss, who is considered one of the best S30V guys out there. Kinda like Rowen and 1095.
Click to expand...

And since Paul Bos has his shop in the Buck plant, it stands to reason the best in the biz is integrally involved in all heat treating measures and decisions. I think Bucks web page will back that supposition up.
 
jackknife said:
Thoughts on S30V?
Click to expand...

I haven't had any problems with S30V chipping, being hard to sharpen or staining. I just picked up a Vantage in 420HC, and will be getting one with S30V. I currently carry a Spyderco Terzoula slipit, S30V blade, for EDC, and have not had any problems.
 
jackknife said:
A couple of years ago a friend gave me a Hartsook, and I took to carrying it as an edc unfolding pen knife. When I had a operation on my left thumb last year, it became a real edc. Since I like traditional pocket knives like slip joints, it was not easy to open a slip joint with one thumb out of action. I used that little Hartsook for just about all my daily cutting needs.

But...

I noticed that when I used it for dirty work, like cutting dirty twine off wooden posts or some other grungy stuff, it got dull a bit faster than I would have thought from the premuim steel it was made from. My Buck cadet when I used the sheepsfoot blade on the same kind of stuff, seemed to hold up just as good, if not maybe a bit better.

When I look at the edge under magnification, I can see little tiny indents like chipping, where the 420 blades show maybe a little bit of shiney spots that are flats.

Now I wonder if for daily cutting use, the Smidgeon made from 420HC would be a better steel. I wonder if there is really a benift sometimes for the premium steel? I'm not unhappy with the Hartsook edge holding, but I thought it would be lots better than 420 HC, but now I have some doubts that it's worth it. Maybe for most uses, plain old Buck 420HC, with Mr. Bos's great heat treat of course, is just fine for most of what we do with a knife in the course of our mostly suburban daily life?

Now of course I have to get a smidgon for a head to head comparison.

Thoughts on S30V?
Click to expand...

Does/did the Hartsook still have the factory edge on it when you did the cutting? I ask because I have a couple of Hartsooks and one had some issues similar to what you described. I sharpened it on my wheels and haven't had any other problems with it. Nice little knives.
 
morrowj_98 said:
Does/did the Hartsook still have the factory edge on it when you did the cutting? I ask because I have a couple of Hartsooks and one had some issues similar to what you described. I sharpened it on my wheels and haven't had any other problems with it. Nice little knives.
Click to expand...

No, it's been sharpened a couple of times. It just seems to me like the S30V is a little bit brittle when razor sharp and used on grungy stuff with grit in it, unlike the 420HC which seems a tougher steel. I only noticed this when cutting dirty twine off tomato stakes that were being saved for the next batch of plants. I could be wrong, since I'm comparing a sheepsfoot blade on a cadet against the Hartsook. I may have to get a smidgon to do a head to head test.

Just for the sake of science, you understand.:D
 
My thoughts?

I pretty much stick with the old 440C knives. Many are readily available in new condition at reasonable prices. I'm used to them, I can sharpen them and get results quickly and reliably, they hold an edge extremely well and they don't rust for me.

I also like D2 (D2, contrary to what some will tell you, is not prone to rusting) and BG42 (which is a great steel and I could quite happily get along if that were the only steel I could get).

Then I come to S30V......which is about as good as the rest. I haven't had any problem with S30V edges chipping or seeming fragile, but I don't use my knives hard.

Then we come to 420HC......which is almost as good as the rest.

Truth is, a knife from a reputable maker like Buck is going to serve you well.

About 95% of us really don't need to pay much attention to all these steel designations.

If you feel better with the latest hot-shot magical laser-sharp XY2Zbt84J LightSaber Steel.......go for it.

Choose your favorite and use it. You'll feel good about it and you'll do just fine.
 
silenthunterstudios said:
I haven't had any problems with S30V chipping, being hard to sharpen or staining.
Click to expand...

I haven't either and I have six Buck S30V knives at the present time. I do notice that Buck hones the tip of the S30V differently than they do the 420HC. There is a slight taper at the point with the S30V. On the 420HC they sharpen it to a "pin point" tip. This could be to prevent chipping of the S30V under certain kinds of use.
 
I've had great luck with almost any buck steel,I have one gen5 right now in 420 hc that i will put up against any bg-42 and s30-v steel knife i own and it will do just as good,why i have no idea,but it stays sharp and is one heckuva cutter..
 
wolfdog said:
I haven't either and I have six Buck S30V knives at the present time. I do notice that Buck hones the tip of the S30V differently than they do the 420HC. There is a slight taper at the point with the S30V. On the 420HC they sharpen it to a "pin point" tip. This could be to prevent chipping of the S30V under certain kinds of use.
Click to expand...

I'm getting the Vantage in S30V, and will compare it to my 420HC Vantage. I have the TNT, and will take a look at that one too.
 
If the Hartsook was made out of tin, I'd still buy it. One of my all time favs from any maker. SO handy!
 
jackknife said:
It just seems to me like the S30V is a little bit brittle when razor sharp and used on grungy stuff with grit in it, unlike the 420HC which seems a tougher steel. ... I'm comparing a sheepsfoot blade on a cadet against the Hartsook.
Click to expand...

The problem with a Hartsook could be that it's as ugly as a carbuncle. I mean, if you took one of those things to the top of the Empire State building, planes would start to attack it. ;) :D
 
jackknife said:
A couple of years ago a friend gave me a Hartsook, and I took to carrying it as an edc unfolding pen knife. When I had a operation on my left thumb last year, it became a real edc. Since I like traditional pocket knives like slip joints, it was not easy to open a slip joint with one thumb out of action. I used that little Hartsook for just about all my daily cutting needs.

But...


When I look at the edge under magnification, I can see little tiny indents like chipping, where the 420 blades show maybe a little bit of shiney spots that are flats.

...
Thoughts on S30V?
Click to expand...

Silverdagger said:
My best guess is that S30V will hold a medium edge for much longer than 420 HC, but loses it's razor edge that you probably like faster than 420HC. That's just a guess. Who knows, I might agree with you, that 420HC is just fine.
Click to expand...

The blade steel metallurgists call that phenomenon 'edge stability". Even though the carbides in S30V are small, they still act like gravel in concrete. Just as when you wear concrete down you start seeing small rocks, so when you wear down a carbide loaded alloy, you get sort of a gritty edge, but you can maintain that sort of gritty edge for a longer time.

I never really noticed this in my knife usage till I started fussing with carbon steel blades. To continue the simile, carbon steel and low Carbon Stainless steels are more like pure cement instead of concrete. When you wear away pure concrete, you don't expose rocks the way you do with concrete. So I have found it to be with carbon steel and low carbon stainless such as 420HC and Case TruSharp. Neither the 420HC nor TruSharp form much in the way of carbides, nor does Carbon steel.

My opinion, which, with a couple of bucks will get you a trolley ride, is that how much you notice the grittiness depends upon what you are used to. Folks that get used to the wear characteristics of lower carbon stainless or Carbon steel (and who fuss with their edges a lot) will notice the grittiness of the edge. Folks that are used to high carbon stainless won't so much, if at all. Like I said, the metallurgists talk about edge stability. I never noticed the issue myself until I started fussing with carbon steels. For this last paragraph YMMV, but the other paragraphs are according to what the metallurgists say.
 
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