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S30V, your conclusions?
- Thread starter Dog of War
- Start date
Cliff Stamp
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Phil Wilson said:
I think this is one of the critical aspects of steels, optomizing the geometry, both the South Fork and Coyote Meadow sharpen very easily both in terms of speed of shaping and especially in getting that final crisp edge. I have even worked the South Fork (S30V) with a regular hardware store hone and had no problems getting a very aggressive slicing edge which could still shave and push cut newsprint so it doesn't need special hones. Those knife designs in general are also really well suited to the properties of the steels which is also critical to judgement of steels, the demands of the knife need to match the abilities of the materials.
Dog of War said:
To some extent, it depends a lot on where you discuss it. Try taking the same discussions to rec.knives and the responce is totally different. The responce is way more skeptical and knifemakers don't have the ability to sway discussions simply because they are knifemakers, they need facts and data just like everyone else, and the "high speed operators" line doesn't fly at all. Swordforums has a materials forum which also has little ability to be influenced by hype and there is a massive amount of materials data listed there.
Yup, that is why you pay more money of course to get tools with more power and more durablity. I have seen those guys lay such a pounding into tools that it makes even me wince, often it can be a case of just saving time because the time on the job saved is less than replacing the tool.
The really funky tacticals seem silly to the guys I know, it would be like wearing camo pants to church, you can't haul out tantos with funky holes in the handle and serrated blades without looking like a bit of a nob. The steels are always a point of contention, in really hard use there is little point of high wear resistance if the edge chips so you want something which grinds easy so any damage is ground out.
My brother is actually turning around a lot of the guys he works with with the serrated Spyderco's because of the insane amount of cutting you can do with them and they will still cut tyvek paper. He wears them so fast the knives only last a year or so before the serrations are actually worn/ground off, this of course is actually cheap to replace compared to the blades most guys go through on Olfa/Stanley knives.
Phil Wilson said:
In general the term hype means promotion which doesn't match the performance, in general I don't think that applies to anything you have said, my experience with the South Fork mirrors your comments on the steel.
This is one of the points of contention, many were/are promoting S30V as the best stainless steel, ignoring S90V and the reality that it was a trade off of ease of making a knife vs performance, which is fine of course, but present this to the consumer. You have done this, always did, so no problems.
That is interesting, I assume this is cuts to a specific amount of blunting. I would wonder how dull the blades were at the end, did they have any fine cutting ability or had long passed it. Interesting that ZDP is so far ahead of S30V. I would wonder how much of this is the hardness difference and could it be compensated for by raising the hardness of S30V.
-Cliff
What do I do with the S30V Sebenza blade I have now?
The 8/17 degree per side did not chip out with the work I did this weekend - but slicing up 4 long boxes (into recycle box size) brought the edge down to the point where I could SEE it in sections.
Every mechanical aspect of this folder is perfect - except for the blade performance.
I need to step it up. Who do I contact with the skills to re-heat treat this blade, and how big a wrench will the double thumb lug throw into the mix.
I originally expected $425 US would have put me where I wanted. Shame on me.
MAT
The 8/17 degree per side did not chip out with the work I did this weekend - but slicing up 4 long boxes (into recycle box size) brought the edge down to the point where I could SEE it in sections.
Every mechanical aspect of this folder is perfect - except for the blade performance.
I need to step it up. Who do I contact with the skills to re-heat treat this blade, and how big a wrench will the double thumb lug throw into the mix.
I originally expected $425 US would have put me where I wanted. Shame on me.
MAT
Well, you could ask Phil Wilson, whether he is willing to re-treat your Sebenza blade. When I contacted him, he said he would do it, though he didn't want to become a heat treater. I still haven't sent him one to be re-treated, because I haven't gotten my act together (shame on me). But, my subconcience is playing a trick on me as well. What I really want is a knife by Phil Wilson in 10V which I am currently saving up for, so this is probably why I haven't acted yet.
Also Bos is doing heat treats of single blades. He has a form that explains details on the Buck webpage. In both cases the re-treating of the blade is quite affordable in comparision to the price of a Sebbie.
Also Bos is doing heat treats of single blades. He has a form that explains details on the Buck webpage. In both cases the re-treating of the blade is quite affordable in comparision to the price of a Sebbie.
bbcmat,
You should really contact CRK and see what they have to say about it. Maybe your blade is performing as expected at that low of an angle, maybe it is not. Sending them a link to this thread might also help your cause. I am sure they would be very interested.
You should really contact CRK and see what they have to say about it. Maybe your blade is performing as expected at that low of an angle, maybe it is not. Sending them a link to this thread might also help your cause. I am sure they would be very interested.
i have a bg42 sebenza,and s30v from camillus,bradley(benchmade?)and benchmade -
bg42 is a total beoitch to get a great edge,when you do it lasts -
s30v from bradley and benchmade chips,easy to get a edge and stays sharp
s30v from camillus-gets a great edge easily that lasts almost as long as bg42 and never chipped
thats how it stacks up at my house
btw why isnt bg42 used anymore
bg42 is a total beoitch to get a great edge,when you do it lasts -
s30v from bradley and benchmade chips,easy to get a edge and stays sharp
s30v from camillus-gets a great edge easily that lasts almost as long as bg42 and never chipped
thats how it stacks up at my house
btw why isnt bg42 used anymore
Cliff Stamp
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rosconey said:
BG-42 is essentially a high speed stainless, it has similar problems with heat treating as the ones with S90V Phil outlined in the above. It never really went very far into custom or production knives.
bbcmat said:
What does this mean exactly? Roughly how many meters of cardboard cut?
JoHnYKwSt said:
17 degrees per side isn't low, the relief angle should not be an issue on cardboard, the forces are too low, this is obvious from the fact that it didn't get damaged on the wood.
I would contact Reeve though and ask if this was the expected performance especially as he made a great deal about how this was an improvement over the BG-42 Sebenza in regards to edge retention.
-Cliff
Daberti, you have it right, primary bevel at 8 degrees PER SIDE, secondary (cut edge, etc) 17 degrees per side.
John, you may be right about dropping CRK an e-mail. I have resisted doing so because I sharpened the blade to a different (though not radical IMO) profile - what can I expect them to do? Their product works for their client base at their blade geometry.
MAT
John, you may be right about dropping CRK an e-mail. I have resisted doing so because I sharpened the blade to a different (though not radical IMO) profile - what can I expect them to do? Their product works for their client base at their blade geometry.
MAT
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Cliff, the CATRA test as I understand it is machine that performs a cutting operation and measures the number of silica impregnated cards cut with a test blade up to some upper limit force. I don’t know any more than that, have never seen it done. The info I put up was related to me by Sal when I asked him how he would rate the steels he uses for wear resistance. I thought it was interesting because it pretty much falls in place with my own relative comparisons. As far as the S30V hardness, my guess is that it is about 58. No we aren’t comparing apples and apples and if the S30v CATRA test blade were 60 then it probably would look even better against the others. I may even be out of line here since I didn’t ask Sal if I could use this information.
I picked up a Blade Tech Tim Wegner folder with S30V at the show so I can do some work with it. I very much like the design but want to work it over some. I re-ground the blade and cut with it. Hardness is 58 right on the nose. It seems to be ok so far, no chipping with whittling and twisting, just a little bending on the edge. I am going to re-heat treat it up to about 60 and thin the blade some more. I also want to round off all the s edges and modify the frame a little so I can operate the lock easier. This knife is a good example of production 30V. I will let you know how it goes…Phil
I picked up a Blade Tech Tim Wegner folder with S30V at the show so I can do some work with it. I very much like the design but want to work it over some. I re-ground the blade and cut with it. Hardness is 58 right on the nose. It seems to be ok so far, no chipping with whittling and twisting, just a little bending on the edge. I am going to re-heat treat it up to about 60 and thin the blade some more. I also want to round off all the s edges and modify the frame a little so I can operate the lock easier. This knife is a good example of production 30V. I will let you know how it goes…Phil
Go to www.catra.org. This will give you an idea of what this testing is all about. Sal and Spyderco have a standard design blade shape they call a mule. This allows them to test materials using a standard geometry. Ask Sal for more details regarding what their test is all about. I have been in other cutlery companies who also have CATRA machines for testing blade angles and materials and designs. I'm sure the critics will note that it is just a push cut and not a slicing cut, but it does a good job of checking wear resistance since the paper typically has an abrasive in it.
I'm not sure if Spyderco has this but the other cutlery companies I have visited who have a CATRA also use a laser beam (which is split by the edge)to measure the exact angles of the primary grind.
I'm not sure if Spyderco has this but the other cutlery companies I have visited who have a CATRA also use a laser beam (which is split by the edge)to measure the exact angles of the primary grind.
Yes, Sal has said many times that they have a goniometer to measure edge angles.
In the little quicktime movie clips that I have seen, it looked as if it a somewhat eliptical motion which would mean it had a small slicing component, but I am not sure enough to bet my money on it.
I think "the critics" are more concerned that the CATRA test is primarily wear resistance and doesn't account too much for blunting through edge deformation. i don't think it is a real critique, it is simply important to realize the limitations of this measurement.
In the little quicktime movie clips that I have seen, it looked as if it a somewhat eliptical motion which would mean it had a small slicing component, but I am not sure enough to bet my money on it.
I think "the critics" are more concerned that the CATRA test is primarily wear resistance and doesn't account too much for blunting through edge deformation. i don't think it is a real critique, it is simply important to realize the limitations of this measurement.
Cliff Stamp
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Satrang said:
It isn't, I have discussed CATRA testing in detail with Roger Hamby of CATRA a long time ago. The CATRA machine presses into the media with a set force (which can be adjusted), the blank is then drawn across the media in a slicing motion, the machine can also measure the amount of force necessary on the draw as well which would be critical in testing different grit finishes. It is also a misconception that only paper is used, woven jute or nylon webbing, polyethylene sheet, bitumastic roofing felt and a host of other materials are available for testing.
The big problem with comparing steels is that the nature of blunting in often nonlinear, highly at times which means that the results are dependent on the set stopping point. Roman Landes and others have also argued the performance can actually reverse if you compare push cutting vs slicing in steels like 52100 vs S60V at low angles. The CATRA webpages of course have no information on the particular stopping points that individuals care to set.
There are big problems with CATRA testing, isn't the method used, but the meaning often given to them. Buck's work with the coated blades gave results so unrealistic they abandoned the CATRA testing procedure. It doesn't have the side loading of knives being used by a person - you have to remember the end goal and not design with so much precision that you lose accuracy, this is basic scientific method - what are you actually trying to determine. CATRA is also one sided typically in the knife industry testing soft and slightly abrasive materials which is very different in regards to edge holding as carving woods or cutting plastics or chopping.
Relying on simply one test and calling that a measure of edge retention leads to problems. You have to do what guys like Goddard, Fikes and Wilson do which is test multiple aspects of edge retention on different media. You can take a mild steel knife, grind it really coarse and it will slice paper and cardboard for a very long time, easily for longer than a higher end steel which is more polished and more obtuse. Phil notes in the above with comments on the increase in cutting lifetime of the 10V blade with the different geometry.
What you need are not stock CATRA tests at a specific geometry, but at different geometries because the advantage of the stronger and tougher steels is that they can be ground more acute. Without this the major advantage of higher end steels is lost. This is why guys like Fikes can take blade steels with little to no wear resistance as they are simple alloys, but end up with a blade which has an extreme cutting edge lifetime both cutting ropes and chopping hardwoods.
Interesting work Phil, have you tried the secondary hardening range on S30V? I realize there is an issue with impact toughness, but I don't see this as a concern with knives of this type, M2 for example works very well for that style of knife and it has a very low impact toughness, but a very high strength which is more critical here. Plus you get the benefit of the secondary carbide precipitation and given the size of sharpened edges which are a tenth of a micron I would think that there could be direct benefit there.
-Cliff
I would disagree, Satrang. It is a good test that yields a lot of valuable information, it is just limited in its scope, like most tests are. Just as Cliff said, it also depends on how the test is used, meaning where you set the end point, what kind of finish you are choosing etc. Even the most standartized test usually incorporate a lot of user choices, which can be used to gain information but also to hide information. With Spyderco, I have no doubt that they are used to gain insight. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the the finish Spyderco uses for each steel is matched or adjusted to get the most out of the steel.
Cliff Stamp
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Satrang said:
That statement is undefined, there is no such thing as a "good" or "bad" test. Tests have to be evaluated as to what you are specifically trying to determine. What are you trying to obtain from the CATRA results.
HoB said:
Yes, what I would like to see are the full CATRA curves, as well see the effect of different finishes and edge profiles. Buck has showed this awhile back when they introduced the Edge 2000 process. Based on what I have been doing lately I think there is a different way to look at edge retention.
For example you can cut a lot of cardboard with the CRK&T AUS-4A, but to do it you have to go to a 90 grit very coarse finish, and at this finish it will easily outslice something like VG-10 if left much finer. So one way to compare them would be at what finish would VG-10 match the performance of AUS-4?
This would then be looking at the blades from the performance of lifetime because since both of them are being sharpened at the same time, inregards to amount of material cut, the CRK&T blade loses much more material with each sharpening because of the much more coarse grit. Would this lifetime match the price ratio?
Speed of sharpening is generally insignificant with use of proper beveling, the biggest problem tends to be burr removal and for me means that often more time is spent on the softer steels - depending on how they are heat treated. As noted this (slicing abrasive media) is only one aspect of edge retention, you also need to check push cutting, harder and non-abrasive materials, impacts (chopping), and corrosion.
Some of the others you can infer from other materials test, charpy/izod/torsional/compressive data and q-fog, plus grain/carbide size, but it would be nice to see it get as much attention as slicing aggression and verify to what extent it depends on the various material properties.
-Cliff
