S35VN a lightweight? PLS CLOSE THREAD

Toyz

Toyz

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This is not being posted to start any controversy. I'm looking for info.

CRK S35VN heat treat has come under fire ever since they made the switch. I saw the video with the large 21 having edge roll after cutting. I also recently read a claim on another forum that the batch of large 25's with a birth date of early Feb 2013 had a heat treat that produced rockwell hardness in the low 50's.

Once I saw the video about the 21 I immediately took mine to my wood shop and put it thru it's paces. I admit I'm a fair weather knife user. I have to go out of my way to use any of my knives to its full potential. After what I thought was hard continued use I could not get the same results that the OP did in their video.

I realized that my 25 was born on Feb 12, so it could be in the batch that is claimed to have bad heat treat. I took it to my shop, much like I did my 21, and could not see any problem with the knife after hard use. No edge rolling, held an edge just fine, and a couple swipes on the ceramic rod brought it back to hair shaving sharpness.

I know I could send my knives out to have them tested, but I'm too busy and a little too lazy to do it. I am not suspicious of any of my CRKs having problems after using them.

So - the info I am looking for - is anyone else hard using their S35VN 21 and/or 25 with great results? I'm just not getting any problems with the steel. If I was to send knives out for Rockwell testing to satisfy the engineer in me can someone direct me to a reputable group for that?

Out of all the knives I've owned over the years, and all the steels, I've never had any one jump out at me as being "bad". They all seem to have their respective attributes that make them good at something. It seems like there is so much controversy any more it's getting hard to determine fact from fiction.
 
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I base my opinions pretty much exclusively on my own experiences and act on those experiences. If I'm not experiencing the same or similar issue, I wouldn't give it a second thought.
To me, it's not unlike asking, "I know a guy who bought a Gore-Tex jacket and it's leaking around the seams. I was worried about it, so I took my Gore-Tex jacket out on a particularly rainy day and I was bone-dry. Still, I'm wondering if I should send it in?..."
I happen to be watching the very same thread and am very much interested in the outcome, but I won't be actively worried about it unless my 25 shows similar results after use.
 
Don't believe everything you see on the internet. There is no problem with the steel, and its a good one.
That video you speak of caused a big fuss. After seeing the thread about that video Sal of Spyderco spent a good bit of time CATRA testing the steel. Chris did some cutting test with it. The steel turned out to be fine.
Its amazing how long the affects of one single video can last.
The internet age is mostly a great thing, but at times not so much.
 
My 25 was one of the first 50 with a birthday in Nov. And it has stayed sharp ever since day one. I edgepro'd it with a microbevel and have yet to touch it up. I am thoroughly impressed with this s35vn with the large hallow grind. Each week I think about touching it up but dont, I want to see how long I can go without touching it up.

It gets used for everything and I mean everything. And as an electrician it makes makes contact with other metals daily whether it be copper or steel. I noticed one very tiny ding in the microbevel but after 6 months I think that is far beyond impressive.

Its not toilet paper slicing sharp or hair popping either but is has one of the best working edges ive ever had the pleasure of using. Itll cleanly slice bags open and strip wires with ease day by day by day. It is different than any s35vn on any previous sebenza so im not sure if its the large hollow grind or a hardness thing. Either way its awesome.
 
^ I agree with SA. I've been waiting to see how long I can go without touching the edge on my 25 and so far I've been impressed to say the least:thumbup: My 21's or Umnum have never left me wanting more edge retention and I tend do do a good bit of cutting. My 25 was born Jan 31'st by the way:)
 
LOL @ a Rockwell hardness in the low 50's.

I saw big foot this morning driving down the freeway in a Austin mini. ;)
 
Hardness is a trade-off. Ive had knives with Elmax and M390. They're nice steels, but I always have a hard time sharpening them. The more common steels like 154CM, S30V, and S35VN are serving me well. All have been high 50's Rockwell.

I believe Chris' theory is he wants a knife that won't rust and anyone can sharpen (a very short version). I use a 1200 grit ceramic rod to do regular edge touch ups and strop afterwards. This keeps my Sebbie pretty sharp.

As an example, I was cutting what I thought was rubber with my M390 equipped BM 710. I then ran into metal. It chipped the hell out of the edge. Sure, great edge retention, but brittle!

Until Adamantium becomes commercially available, there will always be trade-offs :0)
 
This is just my shallow observation, but it seems as though those who rail against S35VN, and specifically CRK's version of the steel are what could be termed "YouTube Heroes" or "Forumite Experts." I remember a thread quite a ways back where someone was going back and forth with Haze and after awhile admitted to having a "PH.D in Bladeforums Studies" or something to that effect. My other observations is that those who typically use their knives for real-world uses such as camp chores, yard work, opening letters, light construction, you know--the type of tasks knives were made for--that they are pleased with the steels performance. I fall into the latter category. I can't speak intelligently about "carbides" or "catra" tests, but I can tell you that after a days hard work my S35VN Seb has performed very well and taken anything I gave it.

I am not suggesting that there aren't those with extensive knowledge of steels AND real-world usage.

Your experiences may differ and that is ok.
 
jwolf90 said:
^ I agree with SA. I've been waiting to see how long I can go without touching the edge on my 25 and so far I've been impressed to say the least:thumbup: My 21's or Umnum have never left me wanting more edge retention and I tend do do a good bit of cutting. My 25 was born Jan 31'st by the way:)
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Sundays used to be "sharpening day" at my house. I would get out the EdgePro and spend a pleasant afternoon sharpening. Every Sunday afternoon.
But since I got into Sebenzas and S35VN steel, I only do a minor and quick "touch up" every couple of months or so, and I use my Sebenzas every day for everything.
I am very happy with S35VN and the blade geometry of my Sebenzas.
Now Sundays are pretty boring at my house.........
 
My 25 was born late feb, and I've been having no issues. In fact, it seems to hold an edge much better than my 21s. Granted, I haven't done any hard cutting yet.
 
Was this claim made with just words on a page or were there actual pictures of the test in progress or documentation from the tester showing the Rc rating to be that low ? If it's the former then it was worth the paper it was written on, if it was the later I'm interested to see the evidence for that.

Toyz said:
This is not being posted to start any controversy. I'm looking for info.

CRK S35VN heat treat has come under fire ever since they made the switch. I saw the video with the large 21 having edge roll after cutting. I also recently read a claim on another forum that the batch of large 25's with a birth date of early Feb 2013 had a heat treat that produced rockwell hardness in the low 50's.

Once I saw the video about the 21 I immediately took mine to my wood shop and put it thru it's paces. I admit I'm a fair weather knife user. I have to go out of my way to use any of my knives to its full potential. After what I thought was hard continued use I could not get the same results that the OP did in their video.

I realized that my 25 was born on Feb 12, so it could be in the batch that is claimed to have bad heat treat. I took it to my shop, much like I did my 21, and could not see any problem with the knife after hard use. No edge rolling, held an edge just fine, and a couple swipes on the ceramic rod brought it back to hair shaving sharpness.

I know I could send my knives out to have them tested, but I'm too busy and a little too lazy to do it. I am not suspicious of any of my CRKs having problems after using them.

So - the info I am looking for - is anyone else hard using their S35VN 21 and/or 25 with great results? I'm just not getting any problems with the steel. If I was to send knives out for Rockwell testing to satisfy the engineer in me can someone direct me to a reputable group for that?

Out of all the knives I've owned over the years, and all the steels, I've never had any one jump out at me as being "bad". They all seem to have their respective attributes that make them good at something. It seems like there is so much controversy any more it's getting hard to determine fact from fiction.
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Low 50s? I believe that even a casual user would notice that their knife is performing poorly at that hardness. Maybe that's what prompted a test?

I dunno. I have a very hard (get it?) time believing that knives got shipped in that condition. I mean it's plausible I guess. Heat treating a steel like S35VN is complex, and people are, well, human and all. Most of it is computer controlled, but I'm sure there is still room for op error. You can't SEE hardness (for qc), but I just don't see it happening as anal as the company is.

One question. Does CRK do HT in house? I know a lot of companies do not (like Benchmade), but my understanding is that the companies that do HT for makers have their own qc parameters.
 
Oh well. Quite funny how everyone has their mind made up and don’t bother to procure the facts. A quote by Bernard Russel comes to mind, where some are so sure and others not so.

From what I read there is a knife that performed poorly in real world use. So no videos or abuse this time around. It was suspected that the heat treat was extremely low and consequently the steel was tested. It came out at a Rockwell hardness of 52 (more or less). Photos of the test results were provided.

Personally, I don’t doubt for one minute that the knife in question is out of spec and has been heat treated poorly. I am also convinced that CRK S30V and S35VN are generally treated one or two degrees too low for maximum edge retention. I am also convinced that Chris Reeve knows what he is doing when he specs the hardness the way he does. It is a pretty sound compromise that has never left me wanting. All you need is a Spyderco Pocket Stone in Fine and a few seconds.

The only questions I want answers for: How often does such a heat treating lapsus happen? What is done to guarantee consistency going forward? How is the customer treated when he insinuates that a blade has a poor heat treat, i.e. is he brushed off like so often happens or is he treated with due diligence?
 
I think you will find people are only asking for some proof of these "facts". Just simply saying "I heard/read...." or "some guy said....." is not producing facts unless you can back that up some how some way. You say you have seen pics, let's see them ? I'm not saying it didn't and can't happen, I just put salt on a lot of the things I consume, second hand information is definitely one of them.

DanG said:
Oh well. Quite funny how everyone has their mind made up and don’t bother to procure the facts. A quote by Bernard Russel comes to mind, where some are so sure and others not so.

From what I read there is a knife that performed poorly in real world use. So no videos or abuse this time around. It was suspected that the heat treat was extremely low and consequently the steel was tested. It came out at a Rockwell hardness of 52 (more or less). Photos of the test results were provided.

Personally, I don’t doubt for one minute that the knife in question is out of spec and has been heat treated poorly. I am also convinced that CRK S30V and S35VN are generally treated one or two degrees too low for maximum edge retention. I am also convinced that Chris Reeve knows what he is doing when he specs the hardness the way he does. It is a pretty sound compromise that has never left me wanting. All you need is a Spyderco Pocket Stone in Fine and a few seconds.

The only questions I want answers for: How often does such a heat treating lapsus happen? What is done to guarantee consistency going forward? How is the customer treated when he insinuates that a blade has a poor heat treat, i.e. is he brushed off like so often happens or is he treated with due diligence?
Click to expand...
 
My post wasn't to discredit anyone making a claim that their particular knife was flawed. It may be true that a batch of a certain knife made it thru QC w/o a problem being picked up on. I believe there was a Benchmade model - Lum tanto in M4 that had a similar problem with the first batch being heat treated below what was advertised.

Things happen - I guess that's the human element at work.

It just seems that there are so many more claims of problems now than there were just a few years ago.

Based on my casual use of knives - I just don't see a problem in this particular instance - but that doesn't mean there isn't one.

So - any reputable places out there that performs testing to determine Rockwell hardness?
 
Toyz said:
So - any reputable places out there that performs testing to determine Rockwell hardness?
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You can approach a machine shop, depending on what they do they may have the equipment for testing hardness though it may not be the Rockwell scale they use. You can also try a factory that deals with heat treating or distribution of metals as they will obviously need the equipment as part of their every day work. I don't know what sort of Universities you have where you live but if you have a technical/engineering school near you they may well be able to help you out too. I'm sure there will be people that can do it localy to you but you can always have it sent out to be tested if not. I'm not sure who the best person would be to ask for that on your side of the pond but someone here must know someone. :):thumbup:

It will leave a small dimple on the blade so ask for it to be done on an area that is covered by the hande if that will bother you. The blade should be through hardened any way so one area will give as accurate a reading as another.
 
I wanted to know if my small 21 was at least in the same ball park as others I have, so I did a brief test. I had a box used to ship gallon jugs of chemicals. It was heavy cardboard with very thick corrugation in the middle, at least an inch thick. It had been sitting in my attic for a couple of years.

I cut about 13 feet each with three knives - small 21, PM2 in S35VN, and PM2 in S30V. All were sharpened with an EF DMT, all easily shaved my arm hair at the start. I free hand sharpen, and I never measure the angles, but it is in the neighborhood of 30 degrees inclusive.

All still shaved my arm hair afterward, though not as cleanly. They pretty much felt the same.

Sure, it wasn't very much cardboard (even though it was pretty thick stuff), and a longer test may have shown any differences if they actually exist, but this test told me all I wanted to know.

The flat grind of the PM2 was a little easier to cut this thick cardboard than the hollow grind of the 21, but that is the grind, not the steel. Sometimes at the end of a cut with the 21 the cardboard would collapse because there was not enough structure left to support it through the last inch or so of cut. This did not happen with the PM2.

This particular 21 feels a little softer on the stones than does another small 21 I have, as well as the PM2s I used, so I suspect in a long endurance test it may not hold up as long, but there was no apparent difference in this test. In practical terms, in my normally light uses and due to my intolerance of dull edges, I will probably never notice a difference if there even is one.

As a side note, the last 3 21s I bought have relatively thin edges for production knives, about 0.020" or so behind the edge. I much prefer the thinner edges. The PM2 in S35VN used in this test also has a nice, thin edge. The S30V PM2 is somewhat thicker.
 
I have used my 21 to cut everything from food to small wire,rope, cardboard, fuzz sticks etc, and what I have noticed is the edge lasts almost as long as my Military is s30v but only takes 10 min to sharpen from dull to hair popping sharp. The edge will roll before it chips, some hate this, some like it, I have chips in my military from 2 years ago (I hate chips) lol....
 
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