S35VN vs. CTS-40CP comparison?

In fact I like steels that have less large carbides. Not that I don't like steel with em.
 
I'm glad to see S30V go, can't stand it.

I love S35VN though. I have three knives with it, and it's been great in all three.

I think that people get confused that particle metallurgy greatly improves upon existing steel formulations.

Case in point:

Last August, I got my first knife with CPM-154. It is leaps and bounds better than 154cm IMO. It gets incredibly sharp and stays that way, only needing an occasional strop thus far. Sharpest knife I've ever owned.

Good, real 440c is not a bad steel, and I'm assuming the PM process will make it vastly improved.

I would like to try 40cp when it's more readily available.
 
I definitely do not prefer s30v. Oddly enough s35vn is one of my favourites.

I also like steels that have cobalt in them. I don't know why but they seem to take an edge that gets a vicious bite.
 
An important question for those who have used knives in 40cp: do we have a steel that cuts like elmax and sharpens like, well, 440c?
 
I think another factor affecting the bad rap 400c gets is the fact many unscuplous companies out of China will mark their blades made of 440a as 440c. Then give them a heat-treatment in an easy bake oven ontop of that.

I read a post from Sal once that they had ordered some of their knives made in China and specified 440c was to be used. When they got the blades they had the composition tested and it wasn't 440c. When Sal told this to the Chinese subcontractor their response was firstly surprise that the steel would be tested. Then they claimed they used a Chinese steel that they felt was close enough and were surprised it was an issue.

None of this stopped them from marking the blades 440c.
 
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CTS-40CP "IS " 440c, same ingredients and standards as AISI, just Carpenter's own in-house nomenclature.

The main difference would be, as 440c is still a very common steel and most any foundry can and does still make it, if you buy it from Carpenter (CTS-40CP), you know rest assured it's coming from not just a reliable source, but one of the top premier steel manufacturers in the world, so it will 99%+ be a good batch of steel made with the most up to date methodology and care taken in the manufacturing process.

Sourced elsewhere, especially an unknown source, (esp. China), you have to wonder if they hit all their elements right? Maybe they only got .92% carbon, 15.5% chromium, and .67% molybdenum, all short of the threshold minimums, and maybe they over added or underadded .5% silicon to the processing, which combined all would adversely affect its performance a good deal in regards to a knife blade compared to .95%/16%/.75% which are the minimums to be called 440c.

And to answer the resurrected OP, all things being equal in terms of quality processing, cpm-s35v will still outperform it in a knife, but it's complicated stuff by comparison, and much more expensive as a result. A good batch of 440c (like CTS-40CP) however, is no slouch by any means, and at one time set the standard for all around performance, by which all the newer "super" steels (like s35vn) are/were measured to outperform in one or more categories, (stainlessness, toughness, edgeholding, and strength).

Dollar for dollar, cts-40cp can still give s35vn a run for it's money.
 
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strategy9 said:
CTS-40CP "IS " 440c, same ingredients and standards as AISI, just Carpenter's own in-house nomenclature.

The main difference would be, as 440c is still a very common steel and most any foundry can and does still make it, if you buy it from Carpenter (CTS-40CP), you know rest assured it's coming from not just a reliable source, but one of the top premier steel manufacturers in the world, so it will 99%+ be a good batch of steel made with the most up to date methodology and care taken in the manufacturing process.

Sourced elsewhere, especially an unknown source, (esp. China), you have to wonder if they hit all their elements right? Maybe they only got .92% carbon, 15.5% chromium, and .67% molybdenum, all short of the threshold minimums, and maybe they over added or underadded .5% silicon to the processing, which combined all would adversely affect its performance a good deal in regards to a knife blade compared to .95%/16%/.75% which are the minimums to be called 440c.

And to answer the resurrected OP, all things being equal in terms of quality processing, cpm-s35v will still outperform it in a knife, but it's complicated stuff by comparison, and much more expensive as a result. A good batch of 440c (like CTS-40CP) however, is no slouch by any means, and at one time set the standard for all around performance, by which all the newer "super" steels (like s35vn) are measured to outperform in one or more categories, (stainlessness, toughness, edgeholding, and strength).

Dollar for dollar, cts-40cp can still give s35vn a run for it's money.
Click to expand...

According to Alpha Knife Supply CTS-40cp is a powder steel made with Carpenter's second generation PM process. Look at the bottom of the table.

https://www.alphaknifesupply.com

Thus CTS-40cp is not merely just a good batch of 440c. The PM process has a major effect on how steels perform. Many of the high carbide containing steels we enjoy today would not be possible without the PM steels.
 
So as a powder-440c, that means it's pretty much a Premo-batch of 440c, every single time.
 
I wouldn't get too hyped over this. I'm sure it had it's merits just as any other high quality alloy does. I would wonder if these qualities justify the outrageous prices some of these manufacturers are asking... *cough* *cough* *Strider*...

At the end of the day, to me at least, it is still PM'd 440C.
 
2017-05-10_11_40_43-_Composition_Comparison_Graph.png


heres a graph with s35vn minus 400c...

2017-05-10_11_47_38-_Composition_Comparison_Graph.png


strategy9 said:
So as a powder-440c, that means it's pretty much a Premo-batch of 440c, every single time.
Click to expand...
no... it would depend on the heat treatment, but if it was heat treated properly, sure it would be a premo batch. strider generally have a very good heat treatment.

it seems that Striders Heat treatment of 40cp is far better than most s35vn heat treatements in other mass produced knives. at least in edge retention. a custom heat treated s35vn knife could go to 62 rockwell and out cut 40cp imho. but, thats a huge price difference tho.
 
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Mo2 said:
2017-05-10_11_40_43-_Composition_Comparison_Graph.png


heres a graph with s35vn minus 400c...

2017-05-10_11_47_38-_Composition_Comparison_Graph.png



no... it would depend on the heat treatment, but if it was heat treated properly, sure it would be a premo batch. strider generally have a very good heat treatment.

it seems that Striders Heat treatment of 40cp is far better than most s35vn heat treatements in other mass produced knives. at least in edge retention. a custom heat treated s35vn knife could go to 62 rockwell and out cut 40cp imho. but, thats a huge price difference tho.
Click to expand...

Yes, thank you.
 
I would assume that 40CP is to 440C what CPM154 is to 154CM. That is to say, it is the same chemically, but the powder metallurgy makes it more refined and more evenly distributed.

There are a good bit of knives available in S35VN. Spyderco's Native 5 comes standard in that steel, for example. The Buck 535 and 112 are/have been made in that steel. Cold Steel makes the Golden Eye, Ranch Boss, and Lucky in the steel, among others. There are a number of fixed blades by various makers out there, too. I have the Native 5 LW. This is a really good steel. I would take it over the 40CP. The explanation for the tests mentioned above is probably edge geometry.
 
Mo2 said:
no... it would depend on the heat treatment, but if it was heat treated properly, sure it would be a premo batch. strider generally have a very good heat treatment.
Click to expand...

Of course final heat treat would be the ultimate factor, but being 440c (ingredients) made through carpenters propriety pm process, it would have tighter tolerances from batch to batch, and a more uniform melt, thus it would be a "better batch" of 440c, highest grade every time handed down to the knife maker, what they ultimately do with it, (mess up the grinds or heat treat), has nothing to do with batch they were given to work with.

Hand someone the perfect farm fresh ingredients, they can still muff up an omelette if they're no good at cooking. Doesn't mean the eggs were any bad.
 
halden.doerge said:
No, that's not what that means.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is.

You take the exact same ingredients you use to make 440c, at the exact same tolerances, and melt them together to create an alloy the same as you would, except you use powder instead of billets and a vacuum sintering furnace, at one of the premier steel manufacturers in the world, you will get an overall better and more uniform alloy of the exact same composition then the billets. Ergo, "a better batch".

D2 vs CPM-D2
154cm vs CPM-154cm
440c vs CTS-40CP

I'm not saying that you are guarunteed a better end product, I'm just saying the beginning product, the original stock of steel that a maker acquires will be consistently better then some "440c" melted by billets in an arc furnace at "John Doe's foundry" across town. Not to say that will necessary be a bad batch either, but way more room for inconsistencies.
 
Mo2 said:
2017-05-10_11_40_43-_Composition_Comparison_Graph.png


heres a graph with s35vn minus 400c...

2017-05-10_11_47_38-_Composition_Comparison_Graph.png



no... it would depend on the heat treatment, but if it was heat treated properly, sure it would be a premo batch. strider generally have a very good heat treatment.

it seems that Striders Heat treatment of 40cp is far better than most s35vn heat treatements in other mass produced knives. at least in edge retention. a custom heat treated s35vn knife could go to 62 rockwell and out cut 40cp imho. but, thats a huge price difference tho.
Click to expand...

I wonder why the composition of AISI 440c on the top chart is different from the composition of AISI 400c on the bottom chart. Something on the top chart seems flawed as I doubt AISI's 400c has .05 carbon in it.


As to powdered steels just being better batches of steel than ingot steel, there are more differences to it than just that. It isn't that simple.

This video gives a simplified explanation of some of the differences between powdered and ingot steel. For those who want to skip to the part most relevant it starts at about 1:30 in.


Basically it seems that the powder process makes it so the carbide forming elements are less likely to clump together. Thus powdered steels have a finer grain generally.
 
strategy9 said:
Yes, it is.

You take the exact same ingredients you use to make 440c, at the exact same tolerances, and melt them together to create an alloy the same as you would, except you use powder instead of billets and a vacuum sintering furnace, at one of the premier steel manufacturers in the world, you will get an overall better and more uniform alloy of the exact same composition then the billets. Ergo, "a better batch".

D2 vs CPM-D2
154cm vs CPM-154cm
440c vs CTS-40CP

I'm not saying that you are guaranteed a better end product, I'm just saying the beginning product, the original stock of steel that a maker acquires will be consistently better then some "440c" melted by billets in an arc furnace at "John Doe's foundry" across town. Not to say that will necessary be a bad batch either, but way more room for inconsistencies.
Click to expand...

The only reason they powder steel is to bypass the carbides clumping with the normal ingot process

so the powdered 440c (cts-40cp) has finer carbide networks then the normal version which is known to have large chromium carbides

but you wouldn't powder 1095 because the cementite can be moved and dissolved with heat treat and doesn't need a special process to bypass the large alloy carbides solidifying into large networks before the entire ingot can cool.

regardless, I would love to have a sweet blade out of Cts-40cp

the cool thing about powdering steels known for having clumpy chromium carbides is that they sharpen like a beast and hold better edges at high sharpness in my experience.

d2 is one of my most disliked steels because it only likes a toothy edge, I've tried some psf27 which uses a spray foam process rather then ingot and it was waaayyyy better.

I can only imagine how nice cts-40cp would be.
 
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