Sacrilege! (or why I don't particularly care for s90v)

K

kraftzion

Joined
Nov 7, 2009
Messages
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Well the short version is that it chips. Although I live reading stuff like Ankerson's edge retention comparison I think that if your going to focus on one extreme quality in a knife, edge retention while cutting cardboard or rope wouldn't be my first choice. I mean if that's all you do with a knife a razor knife will do a much better job for a lot less money. A knife is supposed to be a general purpose tool that can do the job at hand regardless what it is. My current carry is a spyderco military s90v and I do have some chips in the blade and I don't like it. I install air conditioners and I expect the knife to cut ductboard and pull the occasional staple if I don't have my duct knife handy. Which is 1095 incidentally, I've had it for over 30 years of SEVERE use and abuse and I have never chipped the blade. And on edge retention if you cut ductboard with a knife you will have to sharpen it at the end of the day s90v or not. Why is everybody scared of sharpening a knife? It takes me less than a minute to bring any of my knives back to razor sharp. And I enjoy the activity. Nope, I'm done with these super hard steels that fracture if you breathe on them wrong. Cause if you got to baby a knife it is a MUCH less effective tool. So although I've never try them I'm looking for something in infi,3v,a2,01 for my next edc. flame away.
 
I've had staples gouge the edge on some of my 1095 blades.
Some staples are total wimps...other staples are the Devil. ;)
 
For some us old buggers that don't work a knife very hard, the S90V is nice, although it's darned expensive in the models that I prefer.
So I have precious little in S90V today, and that one just sits in a box...nice and new...and unused.

something in infi,3v,a2,01 for my next edc
I've had several in 3V and 01. Would like to try infi myself. Bark River does well with a2.
 
You're talking about using a knife to cut spiral and rectangular ductwork, right? Why not use snips to make your fittings cleaner and more air-tight?
 
no, its fiberglass ductboard, not metal. Oh the horror! Even I had to wince at thinking about cutting metal with with my edc:)
 
What do you have in 3v? I've been looking for a 3v folder- all I've come across is the spyderco tuff, would like to find something under 200. Hard for me to beat up a $250 knife.
 
1095 for anything from shaving razors, to hardwood whittlers, to hardwood choppers, to hard head villains, to "ooohhh" and "ahhh" EDC.
 
Yup.
IMO your regular OLFA knives are some of the best in the industry (the original "made in Japan" ones anyway). They have good heat treat, are super easy to resharpen, cost a fraction of a dollar per-blade if you do snap off all the pre-marked tips (or totally screw up your sharpening job), and with a 0.5mm thick blade you have the best cutting geometry on the market, hands down.
And the blade length is adjustable! The only way to get a better cutting implement than this is to invent the lightsaber.

I really, seriously, no jokes, think that Spyderco needs to make a disposable blade system. (as an ulterior motive, 0.5mm blades could be made of alloys you wouldn't dream of using for a normal blade)
 
Very familiar with ductboard. Can't see why ductboard would give your S90v trouble and cause chipping. Fiberglass can be abrasive being glass and all but chipping huh? And of course an occasional staple wouldn't (shouldn't) hurt it, unless twisting the blade to pry the staple out and torqueing along the edge. Maybe perfect justificarion to pick up one of those cool titanium pocket widgys. I carry one on my keychain for them devil staples, and impromptu beer bottle cap "emergencies".
 
Check out the recent "is m390 tough enough" thread. It's the same thing. People who cut cardboard say it is while people cut a lot of other stuff say no.

There's been a several year fad of these super high carbide steels because theyre the only ones that can be tested accurately while reducing or eliminating other variables without possibly/probably destroying or damaging the knife.

If 1095 has worked for you then I'd be safe in assuming you don't need massive amounts of chromium which weakens the steel. Try something like Cruwear, PD1, Z-Wear, 3V, 4V, Vanadis 4 Extra, etc. They're all super tough steels and if heat treated correctly they're all strong and they all have very good wear resistance leading to high edge retention even during real world use. They are also more corrosion resistant than 1095. So there you have it, a handful of steels that can and will do what you want better than 1095, which has been adequate for you in the past.

Maybe the trend of these weak, highly alloyed steels will pass on by and they'll be seen as what they are. Not super steels by any means, just very highly wear resistant stainless steels that cannot truly take use above cutting soft things like cardboard and rope compared to the other steels on the market. If you absolutely need stain resistance then by all means, get a stainless steel with the thickness and profile that can support the steel's inherent weakness, but know that it cannot be used as hard as other steels.

Here ya go:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1308596-m390-tough-enough


People's preferences and needs vary. Mine go like this:

1. Thin enough to cut well
2. Comfortable to carry and use
3. Tough enough to not fracture out when that inevitable staple or nail gets hit or when I need to roughly separate whatever I'm cutting.
4. Edge is hard enough to resist deformation
5. Not so pretty where I'm scared to bang it up but still has to look appealing to me
6. Doesn't rust super easily
7. Price is reasonable to me

Ability to hold a mediocre edge for a long period of time while cutting only soft stuff does not make it onto my list of needs and wants.

YMMV
 
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I think that it is pretty obvious that choice of steel (and even more imporantly its heat treat) depends on the intended use. There is no supersteel that can better all other steels in all reagards at the same time. For an EDC that is used only for lighter task a steel with exceptional edge retention might be a good choice as one has a knife that is "always sharp". If you have a knife though that is used a lot, than one needs to ballance the blade properties. The narrower the range of tasks the knife is expected to handle, the better can it be tuned for these. If the knife is expected to hadle wide range of task than one may need to take a step or two back from the top performance and rather accept that the knife will need maintenance more often.
 
matus said:
I think that it is pretty obvious that choice of steel (and even more imporantly its heat treat) depends on the intended use. There is no supersteel that can better all other steels in all reagards at the same time. For an EDC that is used only for lighter task a steel with exceptional edge retention might be a good choice as one has a knife that is "always sharp". If you have a knife though that is used a lot, than one needs to ballance the blade properties. The narrower the range of tasks the knife is expected to handle, the better can it be tuned for these. If the knife is expected to hadle wide range of task than one may need to take a step or two back from the top performance and rather accept that the knife will need maintenance more often.
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I agree, for light use where price isn't a consideration, some of the quote unquote super steels really are super. If you want a knife that can be used and abused in a variety of ways, these super steels become less than super really quickly and other steels become super. Personally I'd rather have a knife that can handle a lot of things than a knife that only does one thing really, really well, not just for my daily use which is varied enough, but for the unforeseen stuff yet to come.

To put it another way, I'd rather my child get all A -'s and some B +'s in all of his classes than my child get a bunch of F's and 2 A +'s. That is, unless he's a super freak in one area like math. But that means his choices in life are obviously extremely narrow and the rest of his life will he spent as either a failure or as a math specialist. If he's not freakishly good at math, then he won't be a superstar and it's obvious he should excel at many things.

Many people right now are saying, wow, look at these couple of kids, they're great at math. Other people are saying they need writers and scientists, masons and plumbers, and people who can do a lot of things well because they don't need a specialist as their everyday handyman. What good is a mathematician at those jobs? If I was a boss I'd want someone versatile enough to handle handle their intended job as well as random odd things that come up rather than someone who'd throw their hands up and say that it's not their job.

For some that'd be a steel like m390 or elmax, and that's understandable, but my worker needs to be tougher than those, and it sounds like there's more who feel the same.
 
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Its not a "be all end all' steel but the Spyderco Mule with the K390 blade has been the best steel I've ever used up till now.
 
ToxicBot11 said:
Its not a "be all end all' steel but the Spyderco Mule with the K390 blade has been the best steel I've ever used up till now.
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I'm curious because you said you used it. Have you ever shoved that knife into a belted tire and cut it while roughly prying it apart to see what's inside? Have you cut into a box hitting the rim of a ceramic bowl? Have you awled into wood and accidentally hit a nail? Have you stabbed into something moderately hard to create enough room for a prybar? Have you ever cut through drywall, fiberglass insulation, or aluminum tape? Of course these are simply examples of what knives are for and shouldn't be considered abuse.

I'm curious how well A11 class steels handle that kind of work because those steels right now are considered top notch. I'm skeptical. I don't know if cutting rope and cardboard for days on end is what should be what defines a great user steel. I'm really just curious.
 
matus said:
I think that it is pretty obvious that choice of steel (and even more imporantly its heat treat) depends on the intended use. There is no supersteel that can better all other steels in all reagards at the same time. For an EDC that is used only for lighter task a steel with exceptional edge retention might be a good choice as one has a knife that is "always sharp". If you have a knife though that is used a lot, than one needs to ballance the blade properties. The narrower the range of tasks the knife is expected to handle, the better can it be tuned for these. If the knife is expected to hadle wide range of task than one may need to take a step or two back from the top performance and rather accept that the knife will need maintenance more often.
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Lighter tasks is a pretty subjective term, as well. I prefer very abrasion resistant steel because I cut lots and lots of cardboard, pretty much daily. I don't, however, have any call to torque the edge and I don't really have any risk of hitting harder materials like staples. These days my folders see lots of what many would consider hard use, without going anywhere near misuse or abuse.

In short I use my knife a lot, but I don't at all need balanced properties.
 
bodog said:
I'm curious because you said you used it. Have you ever shoved that knife into a belted tire and cut it while roughly prying it apart to see what's inside? Have you cut into a box hitting the rim of a ceramic bowl? Have you awled into wood and accidentally hit a nail? Have you stabbed into something moderately hard to create enough room for a prybar? Have you ever cut through drywall, fiberglass insulation, or aluminum tape? Of course these are simply examples of what knives are for and shouldn't be considered abuse.

I'm curious how well A11 class steels handle that kind of work because those steels right now are considered top notch. I'm skeptical. I don't know if cutting rope and cardboard for days on end is what should be the metric of a great steel. I'm really just curious.
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Those examples may be indicative of something you do, but the majority are so far out of the realm of realistic possibility for my knives that it would be ludicrous for me to judge a steel by its ability to suffer through that.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Those examples may be indicative of something you do, but the majority are so far out of the realm of realistic possibility for my knives that it would be ludicrous for me to judge a steel by its ability to suffer through that.
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I'm not questioning your uses at all, but does the single scope steel you want really deserve to be called super?
 
bodog said:
I'm not questioning your uses at all, but does the single scope steel you want really deserve to be called super?
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I think the super steel designation is more than a little silly, and highly dependent on intended use. High wear resistance is pretty super for my EDC uses. For my outdoor uses I'd rather have one of the steels you suggested. H1 is every bit a super steel if you live right next to saltwater, not so much for landbound me.
 
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