Sacrilege! (or why I don't particularly care for s90v)

Insipid Moniker said:
I think the super steel designation is more than a little silly, and highly dependent on intended use. High wear resistance is pretty super for my EDC uses. For my outdoor uses I'd rather have one of the steels you suggested. H1 is every bit a super steel if you live right next to saltwater, not so much for landbound me.
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Fair enough. That's why I listed my preferences earlier. Everyone has their own. A lot of these guys 1) have a hard time defining what their preferences are and 2) use a knife with a steel that does not fit their uses in the slightest bit because 3) so many knife manufacturers create combinations that make no sense or 4) won't define what their knives are made for.

Not to mention the vast majority of people who give reviews that do not quantify what they like about a steel, why they're recommending it, or what the steels are not going to be good at.

Take Ankerson's tests. They're freaking great. Absolutely informative. But they're very narrow and only test one function of a knife. Now, it IS an important function but knives really are a prduct where the sum can be greater than its parts. But people will go and say 10V, it has great wear resistance and cuts forever, that must be what I need in a knife. They then get a knife with 10V and go to butcher a cow with it. Then they complain about the steel's heat treatment or whatever not realizing they bought the wrong tool. And then people get all frenzied about this latest steel that did well in a single scope test and hype it like it's the greatest thing ever without ever really using the tool which brings out other people who do the exact same thing. All of the sudden you have manufacturers responding to the hype and create knives that don't make sense to give the ill informed consumer what they want and the cycle just keeps going to where someone thinks S90V is a good all purpose steel or that M390 at 62 HRC can pry teeth out of a deer skull.

For instance, I like spyderco as a business, I think Sal Glesser is a businessman worth respecting. But why did he make the endeavor in S90V? That doesn't make sense. They claim it's for all purpose use and it's based on a bushcraft design. S90V should've been one of the last steels used for those stated purposes while 3V or 4V or even elmax at maybe 61 HRC would've been outstanding. Why not a simple clad carbon steel like their San Mai super blue or some other combination? On the other hand S90V was a great choice for their south fork collab. But now people will buy the endeavor and either say the steel sucks when they use the knife, which it doesn't, or they won't really use the knife and proclaim S90V is so great, which it is for certain applications but maybe not for an all purpose utility fixed blade knife.

Thank you for quantifying what makes some of these steels great for you and not blowing smoke about what their limitations are.
 
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I admittedly never tried any of the uber-super steels on the market, but I've read enough about them, and have a good enough basic and general understanding of steel and metalurgic properties to not have any desire for them either, (especially at some of their price tags, just seems impractical for me and how I'll use my Knives)... While i dont look for "one trick pony" steels (h1's rust resistance/but soft edge, s90v or m390's great waer resistance/but lack of toughness, etc), I do seek out and prefer well balanced steels however; s30v and ELMAX I have had real good results with, (some carbides and good edge retention, while still maintaining a decent level of toughness for my day to day general tasks), I would love to own something in n690 because of my (good) experiences with vg10. CTS-XHP has been good to me so far, and I do still love 440c, W/ respect for steels like d2, 154cm, 14c28n and the likes thereof... Even good ol' 420hc... (And of course, how can you not love the pure razor edge you can get on simple(r) carbon varieties, even though I do typically prefer stainless stemming from my days living and working on the shore. Salt water is brutal on steel, however I do need some edge retention in my life, hence why I couldn't fall in love with h1).
Even the Chinese cr-mov's, while a bit more hit or miss, especially with certain msnufacturers, when done right do pretty well for basic (cheap) blades...

The common denominator is, (non-stainless not incl.), they all have a decent respective balance of properties, none really over achieving in one area while completely lacking in another. While sure s30v holds an edge better, and is still rust resistant enough, 420hc is more rust resistant, and holds its edge well enough (for the price tag, steel vs. steel).
And like you, I enjoy sharpening when the time comes, and i prefer benchstones to other methods as I enjoy the peaceful nature of it. My me time. I enjoy stropping and honing along the way. For me it's an intimate moment between me and the steel, and quite relaxing. Therapeutic even at times, but certainly not a "chore"; though s30v is a bit less therapuetic do to time it sometimes takes, I can only imagine that anything much harder/more time consuming then that to achieve a well enough edge may not be relaxing at all, but rather begin to test my patience?

So yeah, definitely can appreciate your sentiments here, even without first hand relative experience. Can't knock anyone for liking something else, to each his/her own for sure, but for me, I like well balanced, and I prefer to live in the grey area...
 
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bodog said:
Fair enough. That's why I listed my preferences earlier. Everyone has their own. A lot of these guys 1) have a hard time defining what their preferences are and 2) use a knife with a steel that does not fit their uses in the slightest bit because 3) so many knife manufacturers create combinations that make no sense or 4) won't define what their knives are made for.

Not to mention the vast majority of people who give reviews that do not quantify what they like about a steel, why they're recommending it, or what the steels are not going to be good at.

Take Ankerson's tests. They're freaking great. Absolutely informative. But they're very narrow and only test one function of a knife. Now, it IS an important function but knives really are a prduct where the sum can be greater than its parts. But people will go and say 10V, it has great wear resistance and cuts forever, that must be what I need in a knife. They then get a knife with 10V and go to butcher a cow with it. Then they complain about the steel's heat treatment or whatever not realizing they bought the wrong tool. And then people get all frenzied about this latest steel that did well in a single scope test and hype it like it's the greatest thing ever without ever really using the tool which brings out other people who do the exact same thing. All of the sudden you have manufacturers responding to the hype and create knives that don't make sense to give the ill informed consumer what they want and the cycle just keeps going to where someone thinks S90V is a good all purpose steel or that M390 at 62 HRC can pry teeth out of a deer skull.

For instance, I like spyderco as a business, I think Sal Glesser is a businessman worth respecting. But why did he make the endeavor in S90V? That doesn't make sense. They claim it's for all purpose use and it's based on a bushcraft design. S90V should've been one of the last steels used for those stated purposes while 3V or 4V or even elmax at maybe 61 HRC would've been outstanding. Why not a simple clad carbon steel like their San Mai super blue or some other combination? On the other hand S90V was a great choice for their south fork collab. But now people will buy the endeavor and either say the steel sucks when they use the knife, which it doesn't, or they won't really use the knife and proclaim S90V is so great, which it is for certain applications but maybe not for an all purpose utility fixed blade knife.

Thank you for quantifying what makes some of these steels great for you and not blowing smoke about what their limitations are.
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Oh, I hear you. I'd really, really like to see companies not only give us the Hrc range they're aiming for, but the Charpy testing results for that steel at that hardness. That would be easy and quite inexpensive, as the testing data is already out there, and it would give a much better picture of what we, as consumers, could expect the knife to do.
 
Oh, to the OP, you might try out CPM-M4. It's not as tough as 3V or similar, but it's much tougher than S90V without giving up huge amounts of wear resistance. The Spyderco Gayle Bradley seems like it might be a solid option for you.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Oh, I hear you. I'd really, really like to see companies not only give us the Hrc range they're aiming for, but the Charpy testing results for that steel at that hardness. That would be easy and quite inexpensive, as the testing data is already out there, and it would give a much better picture of what we, as consumers, could expect the knife to do.
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Absolutely agree.
 
bodog said:
Take Ankerson's tests. They're freaking great. Absolutely informative. But they're very narrow and only test one function of a knife. Now, it IS an important function but knives really are a prduct where the sum can be greater than its parts. But people will go and say 10V, it has great wear resistance and cuts forever, that must be what I need in a knife. They then get a knife with 10V and go to butcher a cow with it. Then they complain about the steel's heat treatment or whatever not realizing they bought the wrong tool. And then people get all frenzied about this latest steel that did well in a single scope test and hype it like it's the greatest thing ever without ever really using the tool which brings out other people who do the exact same thing. All of the sudden you have manufacturers responding to the hype and create knives that don't make sense to give the ill informed consumer what they want and the cycle just keeps going to where someone thinks S90V is a good all purpose steel or that M390 at 62 HRC can pry teeth out of a deer skull.
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I don't just do single scope testing. ;)

I put them through a full battery of tests that do test the various strengths and weaknesses.

I am however realistic when I do my full write ups and explain what the knife and steels are for.

Put a knife in the hands of an idiot and bad things will happen however. ;)
 
bodog said:
Fair enough. That's why I listed my preferences earlier. Everyone has their own. A lot of these guys 1) have a hard time defining what their preferences are and 2) use a knife with a steel that does not fit their uses in the slightest bit because 3) so many knife manufacturers create combinations that make no sense or 4) won't define what their knives are made for.

Not to mention the vast majority of people who give reviews that do not quantify what they like about a steel, why they're recommending it, or what the steels are not going to be good at.

Take Ankerson's tests. They're freaking great. Absolutely informative. But they're very narrow and only test one function of a knife. Now, it IS an important function but knives really are a prduct where the sum can be greater than its parts. But people will go and say 10V, it has great wear resistance and cuts forever, that must be what I need in a knife. They then get a knife with 10V and go to butcher a cow with it. Then they complain about the steel's heat treatment or whatever not realizing they bought the wrong tool. And then people get all frenzied about this latest steel that did well in a single scope test and hype it like it's the greatest thing ever without ever really using the tool which brings out other people who do the exact same thing. All of the sudden you have manufacturers responding to the hype and create knives that don't make sense to give the ill informed consumer what they want and the cycle just keeps going to where someone thinks S90V is a good all purpose steel or that M390 at 62 HRC can pry teeth out of a deer skull.

For instance, I like spyderco as a business, I think Sal Glesser is a businessman worth respecting. But why did he make the endeavor in S90V? That doesn't make sense. They claim it's for all purpose use and it's based on a bushcraft design. S90V should've been one of the last steels used for those stated purposes while 3V or 4V or even elmax at maybe 61 HRC would've been outstanding. Why not a simple clad carbon steel like their San Mai super blue or some other combination? On the other hand S90V was a great choice for their south fork collab. But now people will buy the endeavor and either say the steel sucks when they use the knife, which it doesn't, or they won't really use the knife and proclaim S90V is so great, which it is for certain applications but maybe not for an all purpose utility fixed blade knife.

Thank you for quantifying what makes some of these steels great for you and not blowing smoke about what their limitations are.
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Totally agreed with this.

I always feel high wear resistance steel at upper high HRC hardness is way overrated thought...
 
it's not overrated.. for certain applications. it fits my needs quite well which are high abrasive wear resistance and high corrosion resistance. i'm still scratching my head that we still can't get a production blade of s30v above 58-59 rc.
 
bodog said:
Check out the recent "is m390 tough enough" thread. It's the same thing. People who cut cardboard say it is while people cut a lot of other stuff say no.

There's been a several year fad of these super high carbide steels because theyre the only ones that can be tested accurately while reducing or eliminating other variables without possibly/probably destroying or damaging the knife.

If 1095 has worked for you then I'd be safe in assuming you don't need massive amounts of chromium which weakens the steel. Try something like Cruwear, PD1, Z-Wear, 3V, 4V, Vanadis 4 Extra, etc. They're all super tough steels and if heat treated correctly they're all strong and they all have very good wear resistance leading to high edge retention even during real world use. They are also more corrosion resistant than 1095. So there you have it, a handful of steels that can and will do what you want better than 1095, which has been adequate for you in the past.

Maybe the trend of these weak, highly alloyed steels will pass on by and they'll be seen as what they are. Not super steels by any means, just very highly wear resistant stainless steels that cannot truly take use above cutting soft things like cardboard and rope compared to the other steels on the market. If you absolutely need stain resistance then by all means, get a stainless steel with the thickness and profile that can support the steel's inherent weakness, but know that it cannot be used as hard as other steels.

Here ya go:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1308596-m390-tough-enough


People's preferences and needs vary. Mine go like this:

1. Thin enough to cut well
2. Comfortable to carry and use
3. Tough enough to not fracture out when that inevitable staple or nail gets hit or when I need to roughly separate whatever I'm cutting.
4. Edge is hard enough to resist deformation
5. Not so pretty where I'm scared to bang it up but still has to look appealing to me
6. Doesn't rust super easily
7. Price is reasonable to me

Ability to hold a mediocre edge for a long period of time while cutting only soft stuff does not make it onto my list of needs and wants.

YMMV
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And I like researching steels!
 
It took me way too long to understand the serrated blade. It is now my preferred EDC, for a folder. Hands down.
rolf
 
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