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SAK Steel?
- Thread starter sgtmike88
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Like 440A.
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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com
>>--->Bill Siegle Custom Knives<---<<
-http://www.geocities.com/siegleknives-
Talonite Resource Page, nearly exhaustive!!
Fire Page, metal match sources and index of information.
"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
------------------
Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com
>>--->Bill Siegle Custom Knives<---<<
-http://www.geocities.com/siegleknives-
Talonite Resource Page, nearly exhaustive!!
Fire Page, metal match sources and index of information.
"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2000
- Messages
- 1,044
Hi sgtmike88. The SAK´s are usually made of the german steel DIN-1.4110 hardened to 57-58 RC.
IMO it´s a better steel than the 440A. But I will not go into details explaining why. It would take some time
Most of the high quality Puma´s are made out of this steel.
PS The name DIN stands for: Deutsche Industrie Norme (German Production Standard)
IMO it´s a better steel than the 440A. But I will not go into details explaining why. It would take some time
PS The name DIN stands for: Deutsche Industrie Norme (German Production Standard)
- Joined
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- 5,403
dePaul- Please, give us the details.
MDP
MDP
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Sounds good.
MDP
MDP
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Hi Marion David Poff, here is the answer I promissed you.
It´s not easy to discuss quality in general and steel quality in particular. The experiences one has made are related to the knives you own and use. This experince is based on the design, blade thickness, geometry, the edge profile, the type of grind and so on. The steel issue comes later. However it is important.
You were right the two steels are somewhat similar and yet not. Both those steels are mass produced blend of aloys of about the same amount of the different matters. But the supervising and control in this connection is not too good regarding the 440A. That means that the quality of 440A varies guite a lot from stock to stock. This means that the hardness of 440A could differ up to 3 degrees on the RC!!
Now, the Puma Co has chosen a different path to walk. During the whole manufacturing prosess, Puma superwises the prodedure. Their QC is without doubt uncompareable to this of the 440A industrial users. After the blade is manufactured, there is another control. This time it involves ALL (!!) of the blades. Puma uses a diamond needle which is pressed into the blade with a determined force. Than the depth of the hole is measured by optical laser. This will tell how deep the tiny hole is. If it is to deep, the steel is too soft and all the blades of this batch are trashed. (If you don´t believe me, just take a look at any Puma. You will notice a tiny dot in the near of the root of the blade). And than they start again from the beginning. This means that the quality of Puma blades are of a much higher level than those from other (read 440A) manufacturers.
An interesting point of view: Puma usually chooses the saber ground type of blade. This results in a stronger profile than the semi-hollow ground and the hollow ground, most often used in connection to 440A. Of course, this doesn´t have any influence considering the quality of the steel, but it does regarding the quality of the whole knife concept.
The most important issue is the heat treatment. The DIN steel is normaly heat treated in two steps with two cooling periods shooting for a temperature of exactly 80 deg Celsius. It takes about 3 hours for each session. This is not the case with 440A, whereas only one such procedure takes place and the final temperature does vary considerably due to a number of heat treat and cooling processes the different manufacurers prefer. This is the reason why 440A never can compete with the DIN. The quality of DIN is much more even.
A correct heat treatment gives you two major advanteges. First of all the steel becomes stronger and it holds an edge much longer and the second is that it withstands the aggression of rust much better.
Further there are metalurgic differences, however as you can see, this post tends to be something of a book size. Let me just say, that although they are not too big, they are still there and IMO in favour for the DIN steel 
In conclusion. A better QC, a better heat treatment, a somewhat better alloy and only one serious manufacturer of DIN in Europe gives you a steel IMHO that is far better than the common 440A.
It´s not easy to discuss quality in general and steel quality in particular. The experiences one has made are related to the knives you own and use. This experince is based on the design, blade thickness, geometry, the edge profile, the type of grind and so on. The steel issue comes later. However it is important.
You were right the two steels are somewhat similar and yet not. Both those steels are mass produced blend of aloys of about the same amount of the different matters. But the supervising and control in this connection is not too good regarding the 440A. That means that the quality of 440A varies guite a lot from stock to stock. This means that the hardness of 440A could differ up to 3 degrees on the RC!!
Now, the Puma Co has chosen a different path to walk. During the whole manufacturing prosess, Puma superwises the prodedure. Their QC is without doubt uncompareable to this of the 440A industrial users. After the blade is manufactured, there is another control. This time it involves ALL (!!) of the blades. Puma uses a diamond needle which is pressed into the blade with a determined force. Than the depth of the hole is measured by optical laser. This will tell how deep the tiny hole is. If it is to deep, the steel is too soft and all the blades of this batch are trashed. (If you don´t believe me, just take a look at any Puma. You will notice a tiny dot in the near of the root of the blade). And than they start again from the beginning. This means that the quality of Puma blades are of a much higher level than those from other (read 440A) manufacturers.
An interesting point of view: Puma usually chooses the saber ground type of blade. This results in a stronger profile than the semi-hollow ground and the hollow ground, most often used in connection to 440A. Of course, this doesn´t have any influence considering the quality of the steel, but it does regarding the quality of the whole knife concept.
The most important issue is the heat treatment. The DIN steel is normaly heat treated in two steps with two cooling periods shooting for a temperature of exactly 80 deg Celsius. It takes about 3 hours for each session. This is not the case with 440A, whereas only one such procedure takes place and the final temperature does vary considerably due to a number of heat treat and cooling processes the different manufacurers prefer. This is the reason why 440A never can compete with the DIN. The quality of DIN is much more even.
A correct heat treatment gives you two major advanteges. First of all the steel becomes stronger and it holds an edge much longer and the second is that it withstands the aggression of rust much better.
Further there are metalurgic differences, however as you can see, this post tends to be something of a book size. Let me just say, that although they are not too big, they are still there and IMO in favour for the DIN steel 
In conclusion. A better QC, a better heat treatment, a somewhat better alloy and only one serious manufacturer of DIN in Europe gives you a steel IMHO that is far better than the common 440A.
From Victorinox FAQ:
What steel is used for Victorinox knives?
All Victorinox knives are high carbon, stainless, first grade, A-quality steel. They are tempered to a 55-56 HRC hardness for optimum edge retention.
...anybody want to drop them some email at info@victorinox.ch
Hugo.
ps. I did something very strange here with html... gladly I found the UBB-help...
[This message has been edited by Hugo (edited 11-07-2000).]
What steel is used for Victorinox knives?
All Victorinox knives are high carbon, stainless, first grade, A-quality steel. They are tempered to a 55-56 HRC hardness for optimum edge retention.
Hugo.
ps. I did something very strange here with html... gladly I found the UBB-help...
[This message has been edited by Hugo (edited 11-07-2000).]
dogboye
Gold Member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 1999
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- 7,152
Thanks for the info, dePaul. Now I'm wanting to go get a Puma.
However, all that being said, how does 440A relate to the steel in the SAK? All the QC process you describe seem to be applicable to <u>Puma</u>, not to SAK. And it sounds like the SAK's are significantly softer than the Puma. In fact, it almost sounds like the SAK knife blades would be rejected by Puma!
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iktomi
However, all that being said, how does 440A relate to the steel in the SAK? All the QC process you describe seem to be applicable to <u>Puma</u>, not to SAK. And it sounds like the SAK's are significantly softer than the Puma. In fact, it almost sounds like the SAK knife blades would be rejected by Puma!
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iktomi
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2000
- Messages
- 1,044
rockspyder your are right, I finally ended talking about Pumas
However both steels are Solingen steels as I understand and the steel base should be the same. However here is a good example of that heat treatment issue, I previously was talking about. The Griffon table lefts more questions than answers. I have seen quite different numbers in other tables, all depending on the heat treatment.
But as to Puma knives; the high end Pumas are really good. In latter time Pumas started to manufacture knives of lower quality (and noticably lower price) using secunda steel sorts. So beware of what you are actually buying!
But as to Puma knives; the high end Pumas are really good. In latter time Pumas started to manufacture knives of lower quality (and noticably lower price) using secunda steel sorts. So beware of what you are actually buying!
Victorinox steel for SAK's (they also make other things):
Proprietary chrome/moly stainless steel
hardened to HRc 56 for the knife blades,
different for the other tools.
And yes, it is close to the mentioned DIN-steel, but made to their exact specification.
Happy sharpening
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D.T. UTZINGER
Proprietary chrome/moly stainless steel
hardened to HRc 56 for the knife blades,
different for the other tools.
And yes, it is close to the mentioned DIN-steel, but made to their exact specification.
Happy sharpening
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D.T. UTZINGER
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2000
- Messages
- 1,044
Go ahead and buy the White Hunter II, it´s not a secunda steel. Otherwise it would cost much less. Here in Sweden you will get one of those for about 1 600 SEK (about 160 bucks). However this knife comes with the stag handle and those are always a bit more expensive. The steel is the same in both knives. It´s a very nice piece.
I have one similar to this one; Trailmaster. I had to revide this knife. In the beginning, I was not able to put a good edge on this one (and thaught: what a crap), but there was nothing wrong with the knife, I just wasn´t enough persistant. The steel is tough to mold a good bevel on. But after a session of about 5 hours I managed to make it razor sharp
So, good luck!
dogboye
Gold Member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 1999
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- 7,152
I don't suppose anyone could grab the table and post it here, huh? I'm cyper-patrolled out of that site (I'm at the office right now). Bastids.
Or just tell me what the 1.4116 (IIRC) designation has in it?
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iktomi
[This message has been edited by rockspyder (edited 11-07-2000).]
<pre>
C Mn Si Cr Mo V HRC DIN
1.4034 0.4-0.5 1.0 1.0 12-14.5 54-55 X40 Cr13
1.4110 0.55-0.75 1.0 1.0 16-18 0.55-0.75 56 X55 CrMo14 440A
1.4111 1.1 1.0 1.0 15 0.5 0.12 X110 CrMoV15
1.4112 0.75-0.95 1.0 1.0 16-18 0.75-1.0 0.1 56 X90 CrMoV18 440B
1.4116 0.45 1.0 1.0 15 0.50 X45 CrMoV15
1.4125 0.95-1.2 1.0 1.0 16-18 0.6-0.75 58 X105 CrMo17 440C
1.2379 1.55 0.3 0.25 12 0.7 1.0 X155 CrMo12 1 D2
1.2842 0.9 2.0 0.25 0.35 0.1 90 MnV8 O1
</pre>
[This message has been edited by Griffon (edited 11-08-2000).]
So it's close to the DIN-1.4110 that dePaul mentioned? Rockspyder, so... DIN-1.4116 ?!? What do you mean by comparing to this? Who uses this steel? Also, I can not see why the Victorinox blades would be rejected by Puma. From what is written here the only difference is in HRC. Puma at 57-58, where as Victorinox leaves it at 56 (or 55-56 as in their FAQ). Of course if Puma wants them to be higher on the HRC scale... but as always with these things, it's a bit hard to say what's the best. I bet Victorinox thinks lower is better for them.Originally posted by ZUT&ZUT:
Victorinox steel for SAK's (they also make other things):
Proprietary chrome/moly stainless steel
hardened to HRc 56 for the knife blades,
different for the other tools.
And yes, it is close to the mentioned DIN-steel, but made to their exact specification.
Happy sharpening
ZUT&ZUT, Do you know how the other tools have been hardened? Or what steel do they use for the other tools?
Hugo.
Sorry! Sorry! Sorry!
dePaul and others are close, but not completely right. Victorinox (like Marttiini in Finland since more than 50 years) uses steel made by Bonpertuis, France for their blades. The steel is called T7MO and is really close to the 1.4110 mentioned above. You should know that Bonpertuis is a specialized steel mill, only working for the european cutlery market. Thus they know exactly what the cutlers are looking for and can make steels that are fine-tuned to give a good blade.
dePaul and others are close, but not completely right. Victorinox (like Marttiini in Finland since more than 50 years) uses steel made by Bonpertuis, France for their blades. The steel is called T7MO and is really close to the 1.4110 mentioned above. You should know that Bonpertuis is a specialized steel mill, only working for the european cutlery market. Thus they know exactly what the cutlers are looking for and can make steels that are fine-tuned to give a good blade.
Now you really got my interest!! What exactly is T7MO? Where did you get the information, do you know more... let us know everything
I've been wondering about the "J.Marttiini-Mystery" stainless steel for loooong time.
Only thing I knew was that it was made in France and it was made to their specifications, has about 13% Cr and is left at about 54-56 HRC. Glad to know something more about it. Do you know anything about the carbon steel Marttiini also uses? There was also a mention in one TV program that Marttiini has just started using also another (stainless) steel with more carbon in it. I've not heard this info dublicated anywhere (although it was a factory rep. who said it...), nor have I heard any knives adverticed having any new steel... Anything about this?
Hugo.
[This message has been edited by Hugo (edited 11-08-2000).]
Hugo.
[This message has been edited by Hugo (edited 11-08-2000).]