SAK with a better steel

Wirelessjunkie said:
I'm fine with Victorinox's standard steel because it always finishes the work I need it to do. I have plenty of other knives in Maxamet, K390, Rex45, S30V, S45VN, Sandvik, D2, K110, etc etc and Ive gotten to the point where I prefer low drama with my daily drivers, which is why the knives with fancy steels are going to get sold soon... I just dont carry them anymore.

Geometry is what cuts, and even without a crispy edge SAK blades are thin enough to still do a lot of common work with relative ease until they can get touched back up... and they sharpen up very fast. I honestly hope Victorinox keeps doing what they're doing, it seems like every company that jumps in on supersteel fever eventually loses their minds with pricing.
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^^This^^

SAK steel is good enough for my daily tasks. I use the small blade on my Tinker like a utility blade and keep the main blade sharp. I have cut up multiple cardboard boxes with my SAK and it still is sharp enough and if for some reason it wasn't I have my main blade backup until I can sharpen the smaller blade. Everybody has different needs but for the price I don't think SAK steel is anything to complain about.
 
Took me way too long to figure this out. There's a lot of data out there that at face value makes older/simpler steels appear to be ineffective or terrible. Theres no shortage of graphs with steels like 440C, 1084, VG10, 15N20, etc at the bottom, which can imply that theyre not good to a lot of people. At a certain point it's good to look past all of the sisal rope cutting tests on Youtube and assess what your most common daily knife needs are... and gauge whether or not spending sometimes hundreds of dollars is worth one specific characteristic of a knife,(hypothetical edge retention), when simpler steels done well can do the same tasks for 5-10% of the cost, and give you other life benefits you probably forgot you lost along the way.

Sure, stuff like S90V gets exponentially more cuts than older ingot steels before the edge fades... But what are you giving up for that, and how much rope do you really cut in a day/week/etc? There are tradeoffs other than cost, such as how thin you can go behind the edge before the edge becomes unstable (you usually get stuck with thicker geometry with commercial heat treats), the sharpening equipment you need to maintain it well is typically expensive, resharpening is time consuming, and also your willingness to fully use a knife you probably have some idea of resale value attached to is probably dimished.

With some exceptions, most people Ive met dont regularly cut highly abrasive materials all day like sisal rope. It isn't packing tape, or cardboard, or wood, or wire insulation, or the occasional piece of food... which Vic's flavor of 1.4110 steel can deal with all day no problem.

I guess it's all pros and cons depending on what you value.... and at this point in my life I value the process and end results of my work more than what my knife looks like. I also want my tools to be familiar, affordable, and own less of my time. SAKs accomplish all of this for me, which is why I think they're perfect how they are.


SteeleJ1976 said:
^^This^^

SAK steel is good enough for my daily tasks. I use the small blade on my Tinker like a utility blade and keep the main blade sharp. I have cut up multiple cardboard boxes with my SAK and it still is sharp enough and if for some reason it wasn't I have my main blade backup until I can sharpen the smaller blade. Everybody has different needs but for the price I don't think SAK steel is anything to complain about.
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You nailed it there. I object when people say steel X is obsolete. No, it's still just as good as it ever was. There might be newer steels with better performance in certain areas (along with corresponding tradeoffs in others), but steel X is still just as good as it ever was.
 
The best steels have 10X the wear resistance of the entry level stuff which is dumbed down in alloying elements and Carbon so it can be fine blanked. Damascus blades do not have improved edge retention and are not uniform on the micro edge. Super steels are easy to sharpen using Diamond or Cubic Boron Nitride abrasives. I am all over “exponentially more cuts”.
I don’t hate sharpening, but there are other ways I would rather spend my time. Cardboard, paper products, and wood contain Silicates which are the main ingredient in Arkansas stones, which is why I eschew wooden cutting boards.
Some guys like Carbon steel so much that they carry oily rags in their pockets to wipe the blades down. Other guys are so bent on the simple life that they sharpen their knives on the unglazed bottoms of pottery pieces. They also eat roots and berries and sleep in the crotches of trees. I like to seek out things that are better than just “good enough”. You can save moolah by using the high maintenance stuff, but you won’t save time.
One of my EDC “super steel of the month” blades is Stellite 6-K which has been around since about 1915. They also use it to coat the edge of bulldozer blades. I also EDC 3 SAK’s every day, but mostly use the tools.
 
tiguy7 said:
You can save moolah by using the high maintenance stuff, but you won’t save time.
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But I do save time. You have to look beyond the steel and look at the blade design for this to make any sense though.

Vics are very thin behind the edge for a commercially available knife. This means you dont have to remove much steel to get a clean apex again, and the steel isnt picky about what abrasives you choose to use... Both of these save you time. Im not really touching up my Vic blades more often than I was my Spydercos, and it takes me less time on the stone to keep them effective. It should be noted that skills also require practice to maintain effectiveness, and sharpening is one of them.

As long as you arent needing a rigid blade, thin blades will let you get away with using steels that arent as wear resistant... This is why geometry often trumps steel selection in basic day to day chores. You will generally need less force to get through the material too. Thin blades can bend in hard cuts though, so you want a steel that has good strength, and this is where steels like 1.4110 shine. They're strong enough to tolerate moderate flexing, and return themselves back to their original shape without it being too hard on them.

Big picture for me beyond just the blade of the SAK is that they are huge time savers. They frequently keep me from having to visit my large toolbox in the carport, when they get nasty I rinse them under a hose and shake them dry as theyre so stain resistant that you dont really have to worry about rust from this, they aren't picky about lube, and if you lose yours (like I did mine a month ago... shitty pouch fell off my belt) theyre usually easy to find locally... I picked up another one on my way home at my hardware store.

All things being equal you're not wrong about wear resistance. Im just saying that theres ways around it with geometry and creative know-how. The material doesnt acknowledge the bladesteel separating it, we do.

Dont take my word for it, look at the testing Felix did when comparing Swiza and Vic blade steels (if my video link doesnt work, do a YT search for 'Felix Immler Swiza' and pull up the comparison video). He did a respectable amount of work, and the knives were going for a very long time:
 
Wirelessjunkie said:
But I do save time. You have to look beyond the steel and look at the blade design for this to make any sense though.

Vics are very thin behind the edge for a commercially available knife. This means you dont have to remove much steel to get a clean apex again, and the steel isnt picky about what abrasives you choose to use... Both of these save you time. Im not really touching up my Vic blades more often than I was my Spydercos, and it takes me less time on the stone to keep them effective. It should be noted that skills also require practice to maintain effectiveness, and sharpening is one of them.

As long as you arent needing a rigid blade, thin blades will let you get away with using steels that arent as wear resistant... This is why geometry often trumps steel selection in basic day to day chores. You will generally need less force to get through the material too. Thin blades can bend in hard cuts though, so you want a steel that has good strength, and this is where steels like 1.4110 shine. They're strong enough to tolerate moderate flexing, and return themselves back to their original shape without it being too hard on them.

Big picture for me beyond just the blade of the SAK is that they are huge time savers. They frequently keep me from having to visit my large toolbox in the carport, when they get nasty I rinse them under a hose and shake them dry as theyre so stain resistant that you dont really have to worry about rust from this, they aren't picky about lube, and if you lose yours (like I did mine a month ago... shitty pouch fell off my belt) theyre usually easy to find locally... I picked up another one on my way home at my hardware store.

All things being equal you're not wrong about wear resistance. Im just saying that theres ways around it with geometry and creative know-how. The material doesnt acknowledge the bladesteel separating it, we do.

Dont take my word for it, look at the testing Felix did when comparing Swiza and Vic blade steels (if my video link doesnt work, do a YT search for 'Felix Immler Swiza' and pull up the comparison video). He did a respectable amount of work, and the knives were going for a very long time:
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So just imagine what would happen if you combined the excellent geometry of the SAK blades with a steel that had 10X the wear resistance. That is all I am asking for.
 
I did. I dont want to pay that kind of money for a thin blade that will be picky about sharpening equipment. You're spending more money to have more challenges of ownership.

*edit*- I'm not opposed to experimenting with the idea of a multitool knife with newer steels like Magnacut. People like them, and I still find them interesting. I'm just hoping companies other than Victorinox push that envelope. In light of recent business decisions made by Victorinox (discontinuing a lot of models at once) and not readjusting their prices steeply, I dont want them to make decisions that would probably increase their prices across the board for the sake of exploring a niche market.

tiguy7 said:
So just imagine what would happen if you combined the excellent geometry of the SAK blades with a steel that had 10X the wear resistance. That is all I am asking for.
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tiguy7 said:
So just imagine what would happen if you combined the excellent geometry of the SAK blades with a steel that had 10X the wear resistance. That is all I am asking for.
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I have always wanted an Opinel with an excellent steel. M2 at 66HRC, or something like that. With its geometry, it would be incredible. Yes, it would be an oddity, and certainly not economically feasible, but it sure would be fun to try.
 
The super steel and sak is the edc discussion seems to spread accross few threads now but I thought I would chime in here.

I have - like many here - tried all kinds of steels along the years from soft to super steels and I agree with many here that what steel SAKs and other multitools offer are just fine for everyday life. Outside of work I cannot really see how anyone would use knives that much to REALLY need super steels other than for fun and hobby sake. I barely even use my knives outside work.

Also people who use multitools "in real life" are often very abusive towards them and having anything too hard would not make sense. I have seen several friends LM waves that have been used for ten years and never sharpened. Having something like super steel would probably just chip or break would be my guess.

That being said I don't think that SAKs are always pure bliss. One reason is work. I for one DO actually use my knives against cardboard and often even very thick ones. One of my go-to knives is the CS Tuff lite that cuts thick cylinder tubes and I do love the updated AUS-8 (still easy to sharpen), one hand opener blade, super grippy handle, pocket clip and strong lock. Outside of work? I carry something more casual and if need be - I just reach my tool drawer for something more suitable. Those snack bags usually don't attack unexpected.

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Oh, and one more thing! I do not want to be douche about it. I understand that many people are not like me and have different life styles or live in different places and different settings. If you still feel like you need more substantial knife then hey - since I don't know you - you might just be right!

ps. Sorry for hasty writing - doing this on my break.
 
yablanowitz said:
Why would it cost more? Just because the materials cost three times as much, are ten times as hard to machine and require much more sophisticated equipment to heat-treat properly doesn't mean it should cost more.
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Right? It's a mystery..

I feel like if someone wants an upgraded blade steel, then they don't necessarily want a Victorinox SAK. That being the case, there are other options that can give them a better steel, though they might not have the desired toolsets.
 
I always wonder what people do with their knives that asks for a “better steel”. What’s so problematic with touching up a SAK every once in a while? And you don’t really need anything more than an old coffee mug to do it. I seriously don’t see a problem with SAK steel. Furthermore, Victorinox SAK’s are produced for the masses. It’s as much a good quality knife for enthusiasts as it is a souvenir and symbol for Switzerland. Most SAK buyers don’t want to be bothered with steel that can’t be sharpened on an old coffee mug or with grandpa’s old carborundum stone from the attic. And “better steel” would also make the humble SAK more expensive than needed.
 
Some people like to keep them as collector pieces, some like them for price speculation, some want something to distinguish their tastes from others, others just want to see what different steels do and play with them. It really depends on the person. I used to be one of the 'better steel' people not that long ago, and I was all about sharpening and testing whichever hot steel was the rage (same username on different forums, I was in it pretty deep). Learned a lot, and have a few regrets.

Making knives is what eventually drew me away from that madness though. I became very aware of what it takes to try to fulfill the wishes of people that delight in tearing your work apart. It's so much easier to criticize things you think you understand when you have no real responsibility towards what it really costs to create them. Its very labor, equipment, time, and materials intensive to work with a lot of modern CPM steels. For some makers its a rite of passage, for others it's how they can pay their bills by charging more for something that other makers won't or can't do. In a lot of ways I believe its downright wasteful to use steels that take so much more to work with, but thats my own opinion. YMMV.

Most people I've known that were more interested in the results of their work didnt mind the quick touch ups on steels like those used by Victorinox. My friends and I skinned deer, processed small game, cleaned birds, etc etc with steels that people love to turn their noses up at these days. I'll also say that there were a couple of times I wished I had something that lasted longer, but I was still able to finish my work fine. Those times were outliers though, and often the exception rather than the rule.

If you don't do a lot of work with your daily tools, then sometimes it's also more fun to speculate about what they're capable of, and fancy steels cater to that. Gil Hibben made fantasy knives popular through aesthetics, and Sal Glesser made them popular with fancy steels and some other innovations. It's just part of the hobby, and theres nothing wrong with it. I just wish people would confine their supersteel tastes to the brands that cater to the 'latest steel' niche rather than trying to drag the established practical brands down the speculation-fever rabbit hole.

There was a quote I read a few years back that went something like: "In an age where we need much less from our knives, we now demand far more from them than ever before". I don't recall who said it, but they were absolutely correct and I'm guilty of it as well.

My opinions and experiences, FWIW.



Juergen23 said:
I always wonder what people do with their knives that asks for a “better steel”. What’s so problematic with touching up a SAK every once in a while? And you don’t really need anything more than an old coffee mug to do it. I seriously don’t see a problem with SAK steel. Furthermore, Victorinox SAK’s are produced for the masses. It’s as much a good quality knife for enthusiasts as it is a souvenir and symbol for Switzerland. Most SAK buyers don’t want to be bothered with steel that can’t be sharpened on an old coffee mug or with grandpa’s old carborundum stone from the attic. And “better steel” would also make the humble SAK more expensive than needed.
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A.L. said:
people who use multitools "in real life" are often very abusive towards them and having anything too hard would not make sense. I have seen several friends LM waves that have been used for ten years and never sharpened. Having something like super steel would probably just chip or break would be my guess.
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We'll see. I have an Arc on order.

I've used my old SOG PowerLock many, many times a day for many years. Builder, crafter, hunter, land management and all around handyman.

I rarely use the blade on my multi-tool as I have other blades for use and abuse and always saved the Multi-tool blade for last resort.

Luckily, I haven't gotten to the last resort yet...

😁
 
Better steel needed for the SAK? Not just no, but hell hell no! If I could cut reeds for basket making, jute twine like I had a modern pocket knife in my hand, slice meat, leather scraps to compare, what the heck do we need a super steel for? Really!
After stone cutters, the SAK steel in a miracle in itself. Holds a good edge for a reasonable time, can be touched up on any nearest coffee mug bottom or window edge or smooth stone from a creek. The steel geeks chasing the latest and so called greatest super steel of the month are being deluded by a greedy industry …. blah blah
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Whenever I read something like this I get mad.

To me this reminds me of typical commy thinking: ''We know what you need so we will make a decision what's best for you''.

Give people a choice and let them decide. If someone wants SAK with Magnacut steel ….why the hell not.
You can still have ordinary SAK and sharpen it on a brick or mug or whatever and someone else with S90V SAK will sharpen it on diamond stones.
Victorinox could make a different versions with different steels for enthusiasts but they won't because they don't care and they don't have to care because they have more then enough profit and apparently that would be too much of a trouble for them to adopt and evolve and make a few changes to the product lines. Why change something if people buy what they already make, right?

The same goes for all traditionalists around here….''Why do we need super steel knives? We don't need them. My grandfathers knives were made of simple carbon steel and they were good enough.''
Leave people alone. If they buy Magnacut Hinderer for $500 or Medford Praetorian for $3000; why not.
I personally can't find a reason someone would believe this Medford worth $3000 but….that's how it is. For those who think it's worth…let them buy. Increase the price to $5000. Why not if you can find a sucker to buy it.
 
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TheOne45 said:
Victorinox could make a different versions with different steels for enthusiasts but they won't because they don't care and they don't have to care because they have more then enough profit and apparently that would be too much of a trouble for them to adopt and evolve and make a few changes to the product lines. Why change something if people buy what they already make, right?
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Correct. They see no business model in making SAK’s with a different steel. And that’s their decision. If you don’t like SAK steel, buy not from Victorinox but from other brands that do offer what you want. That ain’t “commy thinking”, it’s the opposite. A free market where buyer and seller can decide what to sell or buy in accordance with their own interest as a company and consumer.
 
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