Sal - a ? about FRN models

Let's be fair. BSC never said that FRN isn't strong enough. He said that he's seen extensive evidence of its tendency to spontaneously and unexpectedly lose its structural strength. So he's not advocating liners in FRN knives 'cause he believes in overbuilding everything, but rather as a backup for an unreliable handle material.

Personally, I'm still unconvinced that the apparently tiny chance of failure outweighs the advantages of FRN knives, but the guy makes some reasonable, specific, and evidence-backed points. That's more than you can say for most of the crappy pseudoscience you find in the knife world.
 
Perhaps Brownshoe would care to state his qualifications in this subject, so we may place his attack on BSC's post in proper perspective.
 
I freely admit that I'm no expert on this subject, I don't have a degree in Chemistry, nor am I the owner of an innovated Knife manufacturer. I do have a FRN Spyderco Delica, that I'm very happy with. It currently sits in my toolbox at home, I have grown to prefer other handle materials ie: G-10, Carbon Fiber, Alum. ect. I never had any problems with my FRN Delica, FRN is great for an everyday toss around beater knife. It takes all kinds of abuse without failing on me, I suspect any failed FRN handled Spydercos were misused and abused.
 
Fudu, I've not claimed expertice, only the ability to reason and understand available facts. There has yet to be objective evidence of a clear failure problem with properly constructed FRN knives used as intended. There has been significant evidence to the contrary. There is significant anectodal evidence that FRN can handle severe abuse in knive applications(e.g. prying, pounding, twisting). As they would say in Missouri, show me. That takes no special expertice, anyone can be an intelligent observer. Remember it was a child who said the emporer had no clothes.
 
...until I read your post...

BSC has stated his qualifications for his opinion here in a non-confrontational method, and you haven't, as of yet, stated yours. He simply outlined potential failure scenarios with factual, unbiased statements; and in response you just tossed a flaming marshmallow his way, without qualifying your position...

Being that Sal somewhat skirted the question; I'll try to respond to the original question in a less technical manner than that as expoused by BSC...

But first, my qualifications...non-related engineering degree notwithstanding, you couldn't find a better 'poster-boy' in support of FRN (FRP) handled Spyderco's than myself. I have been, and continue to be, a strong advocate of these knives.

I have used/abused these knives daily for in excess of 10 years, the last 5 being in a high stress 'induced failure' mode (intent to destroy/cause catastrophic failure)...daily mind you, deliberate abuse.

What I've found is that Spyderco's (Endura/Delica's, old style, G2 blade) are no more, in fact usually less, inclined to failure than most liner-lock type knives...but fail they do, under moderate lateral loading.

As BSC stated, "I would expect some strange and premature failure modes to be observed under non-ideal loading."...and IMNSHO, this is very, very true with Spyderco FRN models.

My rational for stating this? FRN Spyderco knives, (again, my EDC's for 'hard use' applications, for over 10 years now), failing lock up under lateral stress, inducing a failure condition resulting in severe lacerations. (Read: I've cut myself deeply on several occasions due to lock failure)

To say that 'it doesn't/won't happen' without 'doing it yourself' is a foolish statement. But, I respect your Missouri 'show me state' reference, and as such would like to give you the opportunity to experience that what 'we' have...

So, I'd suggest you try this...holding your FRN Spydie in a hammer grip, stab and twist the knife into a tree of your choice with extreme prejudice...just have a friend standing by to take your non-believing ass off to the hospital.

Again, I'm a big fan of the knives, and they work well within reason; but they do catastrophically fail lock-up under lateral/non-optimum loading...try it for yourself if you don’t believe us, you'll see... ;)

Mel

-edited to add- Lest I be considered a complete and total idiot for posting what I did above, while my intent has been to destroy the GIN-1 (G2) blades under severe, yet 'normal' use (something that I have yet to accomplish); lock failure has been, and will continue to be, secondary to my prime intent...
 
Thanks for the results Melvin. How many knives and what type have failed on you? Did you send it back?

Myself, my beater is a Cold Steel Voyager with the old Spyderco FRN handle design. I've used a brick on it as a baton, I've dug in the dirt, it's my planting tool, I've chipped the blade on rocks, I've splayed my car door's cotter pin with the blade tip while hammmering on the but with a hammer. I've thrown it in the ground and hit rocks. No failures yet. FRN handle, old, probably made by the same Japanese factory that Spyderco uses.

I too have a science background in a relevant area, but on the web self-professed expertice is worthless. Facts and reasoning can support more than education and science mumbo jumbo.
 
Well I took Melvin's challenge. Got my cold steel voyager, stabbed it into a beam in my basement, twisted, gouged out about 1/4-1/2" piece of wood. I've done similar things in the past...it's my beater knife. This is lateral stress with a FRN handled knife. No failure. BTW, my voyager has the tanto point and AUS8 steel. I wouldn't expect a pointy Spyder to hold up as well, those skinny ATS-55 tips can be fragile. But I would expect the Spyder handle to hold up just as well. The older Voyagers were patterned after Spyderco (the clip is the same) and they are probably made in the same Japanese factory.

Sure you can get FRN to fail if the design is faulty, same as with steel, G10, micarta etc. But a well designed FRN handle will last and hold up to abuse. It's a lot lighter and cheaper than twin steel liners and G-10 slabs. Plus there are no screws to fall out with a FRN handle.

By the way Melvin, it's not my ass that is unbelieving it's my brain. To quote Jane Richardson, Duke Proffessor of Biochemistry at Duke University "There are two big advantagers in not having an advanced degree. You don't go through the same set of 'brainwashing' as everyone else, so you might have a different approach. And it's good for not letting you take yourself too seriously. I've not been afraid to ask the dumb questions-I can always say, 'Well I don't know anything about this.'" Beware of the experts, their minds have been closed by their education.
 
Has anyone even given any thought to how much 100 lbs of free hanging weight actually is?
I mean lets get real, i enjoy reading all these posts and discussing the pros and cons of FRN handles.
But being a realistic kinda guy, who in their right mind would exert THAT much backwards pressure to exceed 100 lbs, and we ARE talking mostly about twisting the blade in the wrong direction for it to fail.
I agree totally that the G-10, SS, SS liner versions would take more abuse.
I have no degree to prove the logistics, but i do have 35 odd years of experince using knives and a very extensive machining back ground to rely on.
ANY tool used for the wrong job can and will fail eventually, but damn thats a lot of stress to bear for a lightweight knife such as the FRN Delica.
Ask the end user such as the EMT/LEO,s if they trust their lives/fingers to such Spydies as the Rescue.
I've never had a Spyderco product fail me in any way.
Just my .002 worth. Ron
 
Melvin, i don't know your situation, and i hate drawing conclusions in the blind.
But i don't think stabbing a tree using a ice pick grip as hard as you can falls under the classification of what a folding lock back knife was designed to be used for.
Sal gave his opinion based on his experince and facts and factory testing.
Sure pushed to extremes, my 120 lb wife could break it, but in NORMAL use the odds are very low.
Again not trying to pick a fight just discussing a subject. Ron
 
Gee, I'm somewhat surprized to see that the "controversy game" seems to have become quite prevalent on the forums lately. I dunno, maybe Mars is in Uranus this month?

I guess out "expert" has many years working with Dupont's Zytel and he is saying that their Zytel is no good for knife handles?

I am not a Zytel expert, but I am considered somewhat of a knife expert. My company has put more than one million FRN folding knives in the field over the past 12 years. Our problems with the material have been;

1. Larger clips breaking when we made them integral. After 6 changes to the mold over a 9 year period to come up with the right combination, we finally went to a steel clip.

2. When the temperature drops below 40 degrees below 0 F., they become brittle.

3. In a great deal of direct flame, then have burned.

We have driven trucks over them. They have been retrieved from swamps (after 2 years). They have been retrieved from the stomaches of fish. We have been quite surprized at the ability of FRN to withstand and survive.

I will say that most of our FRN (90%) have not been the Dupont product. This is not to say that the Dupont product is inferior. I believe that our expert needs more information on modern FRN.

More than 20 years ago, we were marketing a spliceable nylon line (rope to the non sailors). The "experts" said that nylon line left in the sun for too long would deteriorate and become unsafe. I made a swing for my kids out of two lengths of nylon line. The line is still fine after 20 years. ???????

We break approximately one out of 200 pieces with computerized breaking equipment. Our Endura model generally breaks at about 80 -90 inch lbs (per inch of blade). On a 4 inch knife, that is in excess of 300 inch lbs.....consistently.

I'm not skirting the sujbject, I was being tactful. I believe that our "expert" believes what he believes based on his very limited experience with some FRN (probably not Spyderco knives) some years ago. I will stand behind our FRN knives to be everything that we say they are. If necessary, we send him one of our handles and I defy him to break it with his own two hands.

sal
 
Sal

Sorry that my original post has generated so much controversy. However, it has done what I hoped. You have provided lots of information responding to the warnings some have posted about the possible failure of FRN. I really appreciate the time you have taken to do so!! While no material is ever "fail-proof" I certainly am convinced that I can depend upon my FRN Spyderco folders in use and don't have to relegate them to the fate of being "wall-hangers"

Thanks again!
 
I've been following this thread for a while now and want to say Thanks to Sal for stepping up and giving us an expert opinion.

Most of the evidence provided in this (and other threads) is anecdotal. Anecdotes are great, but can be terribly unrepresentative of reality as a whole. Though I have no engineering or science background, I have some experience in statistics. Reaching an incorrect conclusion is very easy when you're using statistics loosely.

I take Sal's experience as a manufacturer and user of FRN handled knives much more seriously, because he has so much data available to him. If FRN handles fail regularly under less than maxiumum stress, he would hear about it. I trust his experience more than experience with items of similar material but vastly different usage and construction.
 
The ANTI-FRNites are entitled to their opinions and beliefs.

However, they are missing out on some great knives that come in FRN IMO.
 
So, I'd suggest you try this...holding your FRN Spydie in a hammer grip, stab and twist the knife into a tree of your choice with extreme
Click to expand...

Cliff? Cliff Stamp? Are you in there? <blink> :p </blink>
 
I'm not a scientist, but I have really beat the heck out of several Spyderco Delicas and Enduras, along with a few of the Cold Steel Voyager FRN knives, using them in ways that most certainly voided the warranties, and I have never had any problems with the handles breaking or wearing excessively. In fact, the FRN knives from Spyderco and Cold Steel are the only knives that I haven't had any issues with. No liner locks to adjust or "tweak", and no screws to tighten and mess with on a continual basis.

Just my thoughts,
Clay
 
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