Sal Glesser - How about a dedicated fighting Bowie ???

Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
242
Dear Mr. Glesser,

How about designing a Spyderco dedicated fighting Bowie?

I'd love to see you compete with Ontario Knife Co.'s Hell's Belle with its 11 inch blade. It has good steel, blade catcher guards, spanish notch, sharpened clip point, coffin handle, and more. BTW, the coffin handle expands towards the butt so that the knife doesn't slide out easily during combat. Especially should it become wet and well lubed. Or Keating's Crossada with its quillions in addition to Hell's Belle's features. Both are great knives.

The magic of a good, fast fighting Bowie is in the total weight, distribution, and balance. It is a FAST knife, despite its size.

The historians say the original Bowie knife was a fighting knife, NOT a camp knife.

It was the era's BACKCUT SPECIALIST.

I've seen James A. Keating's video on the Bowie and he likes to hold it in a forward hammer grip with the smaller fingers loose. This permits the knife to pivot at the thumb and index finger. When bringing the blade forward, he snaps his wrist forward and the knife pivots at the thumb and forefinger and the blade races the last few inches to destination at lightning speed. It strikes with a POP! It is like cracking a whip, in that the snapping of the wrist seems to automatically begin withdrawing the arm from its extention. So the entire movement is fast. The hand comes in fast, the blade hits hard with a POP, and the arm retreats fast. And everything is in position to backcut the opponent's hand should he be countering to the hand or forearm.

Those two striking techniques, the foward wrist snap and the backcut, combined with offensive and defensive features, made the Bowie the last evolution of fighting knife of old before the pistol finally evolved into something reliable and accurate enough to replace it.

I am a big fan of my Delica Wave, Endura Wave, and Chinook III. Which is why I come to you for the request.

I also like the Ontario Hell's Belle. I find the grip a bit slippery, though, but that may be just because it is brand new. It is so unique that I have no competitor for comparision. Best of all, it an affordable "custom".

The single biggest problem with Bowies, and this goes for expensive customs as well as cheap knockoffs, is that almost all of them are, in reality, glorified camp knives and not fighting knives at all, despite their claims to the contrary. Most guards are done for estetics and looks without any consideration to the fighting aspect. And unfortunately, when the Bowie's unique looks are exaggeratd, it just gets more handsome, yet, looses speed and manueverability as it gets heavier and heavier and more and more becomes just another big ol' chromed up machete like camp knife with a thousand dollar stag handle. :barf:

The second biggest problem with some modern Bowies is the handle is too weak to sustain a hard blow to the spine.

I'd LOVE for Spyderco to put their (your?) spin on a fast FIGHTING Bowie. A real deal! One weighted and balanced to perfection. Pure fighting utility w/ the proven features of old, and maybe some new ones that will take us by surprise and make us smile when we put it to the test? Looks be damned! And then mass produced at a Spyderco friendly price. :)

Whatcha think?
 
Hey Duller, I know it isn't what you are looking for but have you held the big Spyderco Hossoms? They are agile and fast...
 
duller,

Hate to rain on your parade, but don't hold your breath for this one. Not that Spyderco couldn't. Not that it wouldn't be excellently done. Spyderco's committment to quality materials and excellence in execution would asure a fine piece of cutlery, but I seriously doubt that the market would support the price point that would cover the design, developement, and execution of fighting knife at Spyderco's usual high standards. While they do make "self defense tools", the White Hats at Spyderco are not known as weapon producers.

"The second biggest problem with modern Bowies is the handle is too weak to sustain a hard blow to the spine. Most would snap in half. Yet the sales lit paints glorious pictures of the knife winning fights on a sand bar against a saber or something similar. And the marketing dept tags it w/ some wild name of lawless towns of the past, or the such. What baloney!" Also going to have to take issue with you on this statement, unless you are talking from personal experience you can document. I'm "a little bit into" the Bowie mystique, and DO test different models against hard targets (including the one you loosely referrenced) and have not found this to be the case. "Most" is a pretty big blanket, and while quality differs accordingly with price, I haven't found any snapping in half.
 
Well, the P'kal was brought to fruition, as was the Gunting, so a pure weapon-oriented Bowie big blade just might happen, though I agree cost would be very high. Perhaps a mega-sized fixed-blade Chinook could be arranged?
 
Like in the old James Bond movie with the Afganistan freedom fighters against the Russians; then they show up for a party/wedding at the end all suited up for battle with full ammo belts and say:

"WE had a little trouble at the airport getting through security!"
 
Hey Duller, I know it isn't what you are looking for but have you held the big Spyderco Hossoms? They are agile and fast...

I am not familiar with the Jerry Hossom knives. I did a quick google search and found a pic of 4 models w/ blades from 10 inches to 16 inches.

The description makes them sound very well made. They are probably very nice knives.

But they don't have the tactical features the Bowie had.

I don't wish to come across as an expert when I'm not. All I'll say is that if a knife doesn't have blade catcher guards top and bottom, spanish notch, and sharpened clip then right off the bat it doesn't qualify.

I've seen Jerry's Massive Retribution on his website and it looks like a good start.

But at $500 where is the friendly price? It is over twice the price of the Hell's Belle.

Maybe Ontario Knife Company is the only co. that can put the basics all together and keep it fairly affordable?
 
Jerry Hossom is a custom maker. The Spyderco Hossoms are a production collaboration, just as the Ontario Hell's Belle's are.

Why not check out how much a real Hell's Belle costs?

I think the ontarios use 440A?
 
duller,

There is hope for spyderco to come out with a fighting knife. In a thread started by Sal he asked the people in this forum for suggestions on a design for a martial blade craft knife. If I remember correctly most of the people requested a bowie type knife. If I can find the thread I will bump it up to the top for you.:)
 
A Spyderco bowie would be awesome. However, I don't think it will happen as there probably isn't a huge market for bowies in Spyderco's target demographic.
 
Sorry, the idea of "training" to fight with "full size" Bowies conjures up images of a certain Monty Python sketch. :rolleyes: :D

On a slightly less sarcastic note, I severely doubt there are any duels in my future, on sandbars or elsewhere. If there is to be one, and I have the choice of weapons, it most definitely won't be knives, I'm still too good a shot.

As for general self defense, if I'm going to carry something that weighs a pound, it won't be a knife, and on those rare occasions when I do carry a knife for defensive use, I prefer one which I am reasonably sure will not land me either in jail or a mental institution for merely walking down the street with it on my person.

The only "reason" I would even consider buying a large Bowie would be as "home decor" where, at least for me, damascus steel, brass, and stag win out over boring monotone of super steel and the practicality of plastics.

While I will freely admit I'm not the "average" Spyderco customer, I really can't see there being enough demand for something like that to justify tooling up for it.
 
"While I will freely admit I'm not the "average" Spyderco customer, I really can't see there being enough demand for something like that to justify tooling up for it." - My point exactly! I think I'm fairly well plugged in to the demand side of things, as I sell fighting Bowies packaged up with my Southern Comfort sheaths. After a long successful run, Ontario is phasing out the Bagwell Master series. Final production runs have been done on the Hell's Belle, Midnight, and Fortress (knives with fighting guard, spanish notch). Given that, I hardly see where a higher priced version of the same would be viable for production.
 
Ontario is phasing out the Bagwell series? That is sad news.

In a typical situation, how long does the supply of knives last at the retail level?
 
Hi Duller,

We did have a collaboration going with Biull Bagwell for a nice bowie design about 6 or 7 years ago. Full flat grind, 7" VG-10 blade, Bill's bird's beak handle. I thought it was a very nice piece.

We were taking too long to get the model into production, according to Bill, so he cancelled the project. (We tend to be slow in some product development).

It would have been expensive though. Well over $200 retail. Well worth the cost in my opinion, but as mentioned, maybe not a large market for tooling and production costs.

At any rate, Bill wasn't interested in going further. I could have designed a Bowie to replace it, but my design would still have been influenced by Bill's (I think Bill Bagwell Bowie designs are exceptional) and we wouldn't want to use a similar design without his permission and without paying royalties, so the project was abandoned.

sal
 
Some of the Randall Bowies are fighting oriented, try them if you can find them. And do not overlook the arkansas toothpick for the other hand, the large randall model is superb. Problem is these weapons are for serious battle zone carry and even then they are cumbersome and may not be worth the weight and bulk. But if you are going to get into a knife fight and not bring a gun do bring a nice randall bowie and arkansas toothpick <smile>.
I spoke with Mr. Keating once on the phone and this is what he said. Get a Randall #1 with leather washer handle at a gun show fairly reasonably priced. It is light, sturdy, has a double edge for back cuts and it can be carried inside pants etc without a lot of bother.
If you are traveling and need a good defense bowie type knife go to a department store get a nice kitchen knife or chef knife, take the cardboard sleeve and duct tape it over a few times for a sheath or for more friction use adhesive tape and now you have a throw away bowie with inside pants sheath.
 
Spyderco is the Colorado Randall dealer. You might contact SFO for new inventory.

sal
 
We did have a collaboration going with Biull Bagwell for a nice bowie design about 6 or 7 years ago. Full flat grind, 7" VG-10 blade, Bill's bird's beak handle.

That would have been awesome. The bird's beak handle is my favorite of Bagwell's. How about a Golden made collab. out of CPM3V, g-10 bird's head handle, and a 9 - 10" blade? That would be sweet.
 
Thanks for the reply, Mr. Glesser. Maybe someday you'll again be interested in a fighting Bowie?

Thanks, also, for the Chinook III. It is one heck of a knife. And that you were willing to go thru modifications to improve it further says a lot about commitment. Maybe there'll be a Chinook IV? Perhaps there will be a Chinook Trainer? I like my Delica Wave and Endura Wave Trainers as much as the knives they imitate.

I've now looked at the Randall #1 for $675. A nice knife. And it makes me like the Ontario Hell's Belle for $230 even more. Yes, it is nice. But price does factor into the equation.
 
Hi Duller,

Maybe, but there a lot of really good Bowie's out there, and many at reasonable prices.

Maybe Mike Sastre can offer some suggetions. He's a bit of an expert on Bowie's. He's done the Riddle many times with James and he's close to Bill Bagwell.

More than likely, there will be a Chinook4, and maybe even a few sprints, (carbon fiber, Foliage Green G-10). I'm sure James will come up with refinements in the future as he continues to use it. I'd like to make it lighter, maybe one of the new locks?

sal
 
Me personally I would like to see a 7" Perrin Bowie I have one of the 5" versions and it rocks.
 
It would seem Spyderco has a good relation with J.A. Keating. Perhaps Spyderco could mass produce his Crossada? Quillions and all.

Maybe even improve upon it? :thumbup:

The great contest ... Spyderco Crossada vs Ontario Hell's Belle !

Points awarded for lowest price.
 
Back
Top