San Francisco in damascus... why not?

[betzner]

I respectfully dis-agree Bob at least pertaining to ABS forged bowies.
Rather than taking this thread totally off-course I will address your bolded comment above in another thread, as I would much like to get other's opinion on the subject as I believe it an interesting and productive topic to cover.

Kevin, note my comment about other styles of Bowies re-created by Rodrigo, since his is the work and knife we're discussing. He stands as perhaps the most shining example of change and re-interpretation of the Bowie, in my view, or at least one such maker. Certainly there are lots of other styles, but I stand by my statement that so many other Bowies look alike. Probably because so many are made.

Though I don't know why you are singling out ABS forged Bowies from my comment.

 

[Kevin Jones]

As a side note, I can pretty much guarantee that if the Knifemakers of San Francisco had access to damascus, they would have used it.

No doubt that you are correct, as the SF makers would have welcomed another means to further embellish their knives.
There's a very good article in the April 2005 issue of Blade Magazine titled "Vest Bowies: The Bladed Gentry" pg:20 which discusses this subject quite well.

The knives of Michael Price and Will and Finck were(to quote Phil)".....magnificent new styles of dress bowies and daggers, using local products like gold, silver and finely inlayed abalone shell, or carved walrus ivory."

The California or San Francisco dress knife was as much a status symbol as could be had during the gold rush, both practical and beautiful.

In answer to the above question, Steven Rapp has access to quite a number of San Francisco knives, and takes meticulous notes.....many makers do not have this access, and thusly, cannot be faulted for some degree of deviation from classic examples.

I'm certainly not faulting them. You must have missed where I stated above that I appreciate both the historic accurate and the "re-interpretations". However I respect Steven Rapp a great deal for his efforts in keeping his SF knives historically correct as possible. .

It's like Loveless style knifemakers that have never had much time around Loveless knives....no direct frame of reference for weight, balance or proportions.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

*******************

 

[Kohai999]

I read your words correctly, Kevin....but there are THREE types of makers we are discussing in this thread......(1) makers who slavishly recreate original types of work, accessing whatever materials available to not miss one detail, (2) those, who for whatever reason, do the best they can, but have no direct frame of reference and (3) those who are "inspired" by classic work, but chose to do it "their way".

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin, note my comment about other styles of Bowies re-created by Rodrigo, since his is the work and knife we're discussing. He stands as perhaps the most shining example of change and re-interpretation of the Bowie, in my view, or at least one such maker. Certainly there are lots of other styles, but I stand by my statement that so many other Bowies look alike. Probably because so many are made.

Though I don't know why you are singling out ABS forged Bowies from my comment.

Just because it struck a cord with me as I have been noticing with great pleasure over the last year or two how ABS bowie designs have evolved so in recent years. That's all, certainly wasn't meant as a slight against your comment.

 

[betzner]

Just because it struck a cord with me as I have been noticing with great pleasure over the last year or two how ABS bowie designs have evolved so in recent years. That's all, certainly wasn't meant as a slight against your comment.

Kevin, it being a slight didn't even occur to me at all. It just seemed as if there was bias toward the ABS forgers in your comment. I try to avoid all references to forged and non-forged knives, as I find it to be counterproductive.

I should note that my favorite forged knife in my collection is by Rodrigo Sfreddo, incidentally!

 

[Kevin Jones]

I read your words correctly, Kevin....but there are THREE types of makers we are discussing in this thread......(1) makers who slavishly recreate original types of work, accessing whatever materials available to not miss one detail, (2) those, who for whatever reason, do the best they can, but have no direct frame of reference and (3) those who are "inspired" by classic work, but chose to do it "their way".

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Fair enough, I welcome and appreciate all three. And to your point can vision which of the three categories the makers I follow fit into.

 

[ddd]

I read your words correctly, Kevin....but there are THREE types of makers we are discussing in this thread......(1) makers who slavishly recreate original types of work, accessing whatever materials available to not miss one detail, (2) those, who for whatever reason, do the best they can, but have no direct frame of reference and (3) those who are "inspired" by classic work, but chose to do it "their way".

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

There are times when knives by ...those who are "inspired" by
classic work, but chose to do it "their way"... are to me what art
is all about. It is quite often basically the product of a soaring mind
that can produce original interpretations that others cannot even
imagine... The true artistic talent at work!

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin, it being a slight didn't even occur to me at all. It just seemed as if there was bias toward the ABS forgers in your comment. I try to avoid all references to forged and non-forged knives, as I find it to be counterproductive. I should note that my favorite forged knife in my collection is by Rodrigo Sfreddo, incidentally!

No Bob, not particularly bias, I just tend to comment more and most strongly on the types of knives I'm more learned on.
Thanks to a great part, being exposed to so many different styles of knives since participating here on the Blade Forums in recent years I have become very appreciative, more knowledgeable and enjoy MANY styles of knives.

I really like Rodrigo's work as well, in fact there's numerous makers (forged & stockremoval) whose work I love and am drawn to. However the collecting philosophy I have adapted over many years (not just in collecting knives but other items as well) lends me toward focusing on a limited number of makers for my collection. Though I currently have knives on order from 4 makers who I have never purchased knives from. Sorry Rodrigo, I have really gotten off topic here.

 

[Kohai999]

There are times when knives by ...those who are "inspired" by classic work, but chose to do it "their way"... are to me what art is all about. It is quite often basically the product of a soaring mind
that can produce original interpretations that others cannot even
imagine... The true artistic talent at work!

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

Not to derail an otherwise excellent thread, David....but in my experience, one of the areas that suffers from "do it my way" is Japanese swords(or those done in that style).....USUALLY the result of interpretation may be very pretty, but utterly useless to someone who has very high standards from a practical standpoint.

It all depends upon what the expectations are.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[betzner]

There are times when knives by ...those who are "inspired" by
classic work, but chose to do it "their way"... are to me what art
is all about. It is quite often basically the product of a soaring mind
that can produce original interpretations that others cannot even
imagine... The true artistic talent at work!

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

Absolutely agreed, as otherwise, there would be no innovation. And Rodrigo Sfreddo, as mentioned earlier, is a shining example of a maker who has pushed it to the edge - and in doing so has created some of the most eye-appealing work we see today.

 

[ddd]

Not to derail an otherwise excellent thread, David....but in my experience, one of the areas that suffers from "do it my way" is Japanese swords(or those done in that style).....USUALLY the result of interpretation may be very pretty, but utterly useless to someone who has very high standards from a practical standpoint.

It all depends upon what the expectations are.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I agree with you absolutely on the subject of "Western interpretations"
of Japanese traditional knife art. And, I was not thinking of this type
of "originality" when I wrote the above...
I do not pretend to know too much about the subject, but I am quite
often "disturbed" by these specific interpretations, probably because of my
great and unexplained admiration and awe for the true Japanese tradition
kept alive from generation to generation over many hundreds of years.

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

 

[betzner]

Not to derail an otherwise excellent thread, David....but in my experience, one of the areas that suffers from "do it my way" is Japanese swords(or those done in that style).....USUALLY the result of interpretation may be very pretty, but utterly useless to someone who has very high standards from a practical standpoint.

It all depends upon what the expectations are.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Your comparison of Japanese sword "re-interpretation" kind of fits my thoughts about SF knife handle "re-interpretation" - though yours is more about use and mine about aesthetics.

For me, the issue of re-interpretation of each is similar in aspect.

 

[RogerP]

I think Rodrigo has done a fantastic job when it comes to re-interpreting the handle of the "typical" Bowie, as well as the blade design - which ends up being one magnificent feast of integral metal. Look at Jon Klein's latest get from Rodrigo. Absolutely amazing. But don't screw with the handle of a SF knife because just about any "re-interpretation" makes it less of a creation.

Definitely disagree with you on both points Bob. First of all, Rodrigo's integral handles are the very definition of atypical in the context of Bowie knives.

But more to the topic at hand, I simply can't accept that ANY variation of a handle design on a SF knife makes it "less of a creation". The original SF makers - as talented and innovative as they were - did not collectively create some kind of Platonic form of the perfect knife handle. I can no more acept this than I can accept the assertion that ANY variation on Loveless subhilt makes the resulting knife less of a knife.

People have specific preferences born of experience with and passion for knives. But it does a disservice to the work of others, in my view to confuse those preferences with rules of general appliction and defiing signposts of superioroty of design. Hey -you like the historically "accurate" designs - that's fine. But a variation on those originals does not by definition result in an inferior knife. It may be less appealing to you, but it is not necessarily less of a knife.

Roger

 

[RogerP]

I would love to see another style of integral knife arise from his abilities with damascus. I love about every knife I have ever seen from him. Maybe another re-interpretation of the Bowie? So many of them seem to look alike today.

That seems an odd criticism from someone advocating that SF knife designs should not stray from a very defined and well-traveled path.

Roger

 

[betzner]

Definitely disagree with you on both points Bob. First of all, Rodrigo's integral handles are the very definition of atypical in the context of Bowie knives.

Where in the world did I ever disagree with this comment about Sfreddo's work being other than atypical?????

But more to the topic at hand, I simply can't accept that ANY variation of a handle design on a SF knife makes it "less of a creation". The original SF makers - as talented and innovative as they were - did not collectively create some kind of Platonic form of the perfect knife handle. I can no more acept this than I can accept the assertion that ANY variation on Loveless subhilt makes the resulting knife less of a knife.

People have specific preferences born of experience with and passion for knives. But it does a disservice to the work of others, in my view to confuse those preferences with rules of general appliction and defiing signposts of superioroty of design. Hey -you like the historically "accurate" designs - that's fine. But a variation on those originals does not by definition result in an inferior knife. It may be less appealing to you, but it is not necessarily less of a knife.

Roger

First, if you read my words again, I am agreeing that Rodrigo breaks the Bowie mold. Why are you inferring that I've said anything less.

And I am not advocating anything. I am expressing opinion. Makers will go on making what they wish. Buyers will buy what they buy. But I certainly have not inferred inferiority of anyone's work. So I'd prefer you not infer otherwise as to do so is a disservice to this medium of communication.

As to my somewhat "tongue in cheek" comment about Bowies looking alot alike, you are taking the quote out of the context of the thread - any further reading of the thread, at least with my own posts, discusses how there are break-outs of this, particularly with R Sfredddo's work. But I stand by the comment, nonetheless, as opinion.

 

[Lycosa]

Fantastic knife. Thanks!

 

[RogerP]

And I am not advocating anything. I am expressing opinion. Makers will go on making what they wish. Buyers will buy what they buy. But I certainly have not inferred inferiority of anyone's work. So I'd prefer you not infer otherwise as to do so is a disservice to this medium of communication.

Sorry Bob - I obviously misread the your earlier comment:

. But don't screw with the handle of a SF knife because just about any "re-interpretation" makes it less of a creation.

See, as I read that, it almost sounds like you are saying that someone who "screws" with the original SF handle design produces a knife which is "less of a creation". Oddly, I seem to have inferred that a knife which is "less of a creation" would by definition be inferior to a knife not dimished by such "screwing".

Hopefully, you can see where I got these crazy notions.

Roger

 

[betzner]

Sorry Bob - I obviously misread the your earlier comment:



See, as I read that, it almost sounds like you are saying that someone who "screws" with the original SF handle design produces a knife which is "less of a creation". Oddly, I seem to have inferred that a knife which is "less of a creation" would by definition be inferior to a knife not dimished by such "screwing".

Hopefully, you can see where I got these crazy notions.

Roger

"less of a creation" came out rather easy to misinterpret, now that I re-read it. As I was writing the statement, my thoughts had more to do with the intricacies of the parts as a whole (in a traditional SF knife) as opposed to an integral handle, not having any "parts". I think we had much confusion here because of what I was thinking as I was typing. Very subject to mis-interpretation, I must agree.

 

[RogerP]

Bob - understood.

Roger

 

[Eduardo Berardo]

Absolutely beautiful knife. Fortunately I had the opportunity to have in the hands. Congratulations my brother!!!
DU BERARDO