San Mai III® Cold Steel Master Tanto

[knarfeng]

INFI steel by Busse Combat or SR-101 by Swamp Rat spank the living s*!@# out of "San Mai", it's not even funny. Not to mention CPM-M4 and CPM-3V by Crucible.

"San Mai III" is NOT a type of steel, it's a marketing name for a common laminated steel made of a core of mid-grade Japanese steel (VG-1) surrounded by a cheaper, softer steel. By the way, this so called "San Mai" is not exceptionally tough nor it holds a great edge for longer than any common cutlery stainless steel. Unless you think something like 440C and AUS-8 is top notch stuff.

Don't try so hard to put down the Cold Steel product unless you have one yourself and it has not performed well for you.

Several folks who have the San Mai III bladed Cold Steel knives and whose posts I trust have posted favorably about their performance. I have not read a poist from anyone who actually had one that did not like it.

 

[THG]

OMG you all need to READ the posts! I don't think ANYONE said that CS produces junk products!

I seem to agree with Outdoors' opinion, so let me speak mine which may or may not include his: the ONLY problem I have with the so-called "San Mai III" is the name. They treat it as if it is some sort of steel, which it is not. They are obviously preying on the less-than-educated. Also, they are not using some premium steel for the core such as ZDP-189 or 3G or whatever; they are using *only* VG-1. That's okay, but it's not super special or anything like they make "San Mai III" seem like in the videos.

That aside, I think CS makes some really high-quality knives. I had a Ti-Lite and I thought it was a great piece. I have a Scimitar Spike, and the quality is there - no complaints about it. I believe that the Voyagers, Vaqueros, Gunsites, and their machetes are all tough as nails. And their Espada has the Tri-Ad lock, which may be the strongest lock ever conceived.

I'll give credit where credit is due, but you all are reading hate into our posts when it simply is not there.

 

[knarfeng]

So, do you own one and are you unhappy with it the performance of the San Mai?

 

[Matthew M]

That's what I tried to say, but according to some, "there is no such thing as a mid-grade or cheap steel"

Whatever. You can't save everyone from falling for the Cold Steel marketing campaign.

yeah and not everyones smart enough not to diss somthing because of its company name either !!! san mai 3 is good but not as good as its price. however the vg-1 core is not a cheap or mediocre steel its as good as spydercos vg-10 and no one ever labels it as cheap or mediocre

 

[THG]

So, do you own one and are you unhappy with it the performance of the San Mai?

Sigh... Let's backtrack for a second here, shall we?

1. The OP asked, "What kind of steel is San Mai III?"

2. I explained that San Mai III is not a steel per se and tried to make him aware of the marketing tactic that it is (that does NOT mean I'm saying that it's crap, god dammit!)

3. You and a couple others accuse me of saying that San Mai is trash, Cold Steel is crap, and Lynn Thompson is the devil.

So you see all along that it was never my intention to comment on the performance of so-called San Mai steel. I simply answered the question, "What kind of steel is San Mai III?"

 

[THE PUNISHER]

san mai 3 is sharp,infi steel i have one busse it is sharp,you know i like cold steel for the money you can not beat some of there knives,the natchez is around $375 kinda high,infi beat the cs mabye,i don't go chopping but i do use my knives if it breaks itz covered.......

 

[knarfeng]

San Mai III is Cold Steel's super fancy word for laminated steel. Basically they take a low-grade steel and a mediocre steel and sandwich it so that the low-grade is on the outside and the mid-grade is in the center (for better edge durability). And then they call it "San Mai III" and jack the price through the roof.

Not that it's horrible stuff; that's just the way I see Cold Steel's "San Mai:" nothing premium, yet it's sold as such.

Edit: I just looked up the "Master Tanto," and it appears to be VG-1 steel that's laminated in the center. It's an okay steel, but it's not special. Don't let the fancy name "San Mai III" get to you.

For someone who says he is not running down the blade steel, you used very derogatory terminology.

So, if you don't have a San Mai III blade, how can you rate its performance?
And you are rating its performance through your descriptions.

 

[THG]

For someone who says he is not running down the blade steel, you used very derogatory terminology.

420J is not a top-of-the-line steel, and VG-1 is no ZDP-189, D2, S90V, or whatever

I chose my words quite carefully; I didn't say they were $@#!tty steels, crappy steels, junk steels...

So, if you don't have a San Mai III blade, how can you rate its performance?

I can't. That's why I didn't

And you are rating its performance through your descriptions.

I said WHAT it is, not HOW it is.

These accusations are absolutely absurd. If you want to continue to try to crucify me, go ahead; I won't be here.

Good day to you, sirs.

 

[Mossyhorn]

The Cold Steel Caledonion Edge is one of the best high end production folders that I have owned. The San Mai steel used is one the sharpest factory edges I've encountered.

 

[GrinderMcgee]

Q: What is San Mai III® blade construction?
San Mai A simple way to think of San Mai III® blade construction is to imagine a sandwich: The meat center is hard, high carbon steel and the pieces of bread on either side are the lower-carbon, tough side panels. The edge of the blade should be hard to maximize edge holding ability, but if the entire blade was hard it could be damaged during the rigors of battle. For ultimate toughness the body of the blade must be able to withstand impact and lateral stresses. Toughness is generally associated with "softness" and "flexibility" in steel, so that, surprisingly, if a blade is made "tough" the edge won't be hard enough to offer superior edge holding. San Mai III® blades provides a blade with hard (higher carbon)(VG-1) steel in the middle for a keen, long lasting edge and tougher (lower-carbon)(420J) steel along the sides for flexibility.

This is straight from the catalog description of the steel (added the red for clarity). I do not see any grossly misleading remarks but in this description but rather exactly what was intended with the construction.

CS is the "gateway drug" that a lot of knife users graduate to after getting tired of dime store cheapies. The marketing is just genious to grab the new to the game users whose attention span of three seconds just won't pay attention to advertisement that is not sensationalized like the proof vid. That does not mean I hang on every word LT spits but this strategy puts CS in the biggest category of mass appeal for knife users.

The patterns are classic and the materials are quality. The lines/grinds on the CS factory knives are very crisp and the SMIII knives come very sharp. I have yet to get one in the older AUS-8 or newer laminate steel that required immediate work. It is very impressive to see the lateral tolerance of the laminate, that does not mean the cutting edge is indestructible.

I am a knife guy, not brand exclusive and Cold Steel makes some of my favorite knives. The tanto line are nice blades and if you want to save a dime by sacrificing some of lateral toughness, there are AUS-8A tantos available on the second hand market fairly steadily. Check the F/S forum here in BF, there are some great guys here.

 

[Knife Outlet]

I get a serious chuckle out of the bashing. It is pure emotion without an ounce of reality. Cold Steel is a successful company. They outsell almost every other manufacturer in the U.S. Name a knife manufacturer and Cold Steel is probably bigger. The magic of their product line to me is that they release products that sell for years and years while most manufacturers get a few months sales from a product and then have to release something else.

There is an avid and serious collector group for their products. These are people who spend over $10,000 per year on their knife collections. I had one customer last month who bought over $10,000 worth of Cold Steel knives in a single order. All high end products.

I've sold thousands and thousands of Cold Steel knives to the military. I remember during Desert Storm I supplied the air wings of 3 aircraft carriers with pilot survival knives. All of them were Cold Steel. I've sold Cold Steel knives to Ranger and SEAL units.

The 60 series Cold Steel knives with laminated blades are as good as any production knives in the industry. They are made in Japan and, if you don't know it already, the Japanese make some of the best cutlery on the planet.

You may not like Lynn Thompson but you have to respect his success. Argue all you want but don't argue with success. Success is what it is. You may not like the products but lots and lots of people do and I don't think any of them hang out in malls with ninja costumes. Where does this stuff come from?

 

[antonio_luiz]

Thank you for your post - it's refreshing to get a professional's perspective and it's about time that the CS bashers got a good dose of reality. Nice to know I'm not in the minority when it comes to appreciating CS knives.

Some of the most interesting knives in my collection are CS. The fit and finish of all my CS SanMai knives are outstanding. Yes they can be pricey but a lot of CS knives push my buttons whereas other and arguably "better" knives leave me cold.

For anyone that knocks CS for using VG1 instead of the "superior" VG10, the former is not an inferior steel. Both are made by Takefu Special Steel, both are excellent cutlery steels - the main difference is that VG1 is formulated to be tougher than VG10 and so is better for some applications.

http://www.e-tokko.com/eng_vg1.htm

 

[Larry Turko]

I like Antonio's point that a knife has to "push his buttons" in order for him to buy it. I feel the same way, a knife has to appeal to me on a visceral level. It can be made out of the best materials in the world but if it doesn't appeal to me visually I just don't care.

I always assumed most people bought knives on the same basis but I see quite a few requests on this forum asking others what knives they should buy. That's not to say that people shouldn't take advice from others, but I think ultimately we have to trust our own instincts.

 

[pvicenzi]

I like Antonio's point that a knife has to "push his buttons" in order for him to buy it. I feel the same way, a knife has to appeal to me on a visceral level. It can be made out of the best materials in the world but if it doesn't appeal to me visually I just don't care.

I always assumed most people bought knives on the same basis but I see quite a few requests on this forum asking others what knives they should buy. That's not to say that people shouldn't take advice from others, but I think ultimately we have to trust our own instincts.

Great post. We tend to put too much emphasis on the latest miracle steel these days and forget that our grandfathers cut things just fine with knives that they had no idea what kind of steel the blades contained. Also, it's been my experience that a junky knife with the latest greatest steel doesn't peroform as well as a properly made knife with one of the "lowly" steels.

 

[THE PUNISHER]

I get a serious chuckle out of the bashing. It is pure emotion without an ounce of reality. Cold Steel is a successful company. They outsell almost every other manufacturer in the U.S. Name a knife manufacturer and Cold Steel is probably bigger. The magic of their product line to me is that they release products that sell for years and years while most manufacturers get a few months sales from a product and then have to release something else.

There is an avid and serious collector group for their products. These are people who spend over $10,000 per year on their knife collections. I had one customer last month who bought over $10,000 worth of Cold Steel knives in a single order. All high end products.

I've sold thousands and thousands of Cold Steel knives to the military. I remember during Desert Storm I supplied the air wings of 3 aircraft carriers with pilot survival knives. All of them were Cold Steel. I've sold Cold Steel knives to Ranger and SEAL units.

The 60 series Cold Steel knives with laminated blades are as good as any production knives in the industry. They are made in Japan and, if you don't know it already, the Japanese make some of the best cutlery on the planet.

You may not like Lynn Thompson but you have to respect his success. Argue all you want but don't argue with success. Success is what it is. You may not like the products but lots and lots of people do and I don't think any of them hang out in malls with ninja costumes. Where does this stuff come from?

good post,out of all the bashing yours comes thru with sense...........and no i am not a cold steel fanboy.....

 

[Knife Outlet]

Thanks. I didn't mean for it to turn into a rant. There are plenty of companies in the industry that deserve bashing but CS isn't one of them. They are solid players and the company is very well managed.

I don't own very many fixed blade knives personally but I own a 14BBC Blackbear Classic. I had a custom Kydex sheath made for it. Great knife. Good materials. Perfect fit and finish. Great design with good balance and very a comfortable micarta handle. Take my word for it. I've handled almost every knife in the industry. They don't get a lot better than the Black Bear Classic. Get past whatever bugs you and find one of their Japanese made higher end products that appeals to you and buy it. I think you'll be impressed.

 

[mamba]

INFI steel by Busse Combat or SR-101 by Swamp Rat spank the living s*!@# out of "San Mai", it's not even funny. Not to mention CPM-M4 and CPM-3V by Crucible.

What are the pros and cons of INFI and SR-101 in comparison to each other, San Mai and other high grade steel?

Cheers.

 

[mdauben]

Sorry, but Spyderco and Fallkniven's laminates are truly the latest high-end materials available

They are also more expensive and/or smaller than the CS Master Tanto. Despite your crisism, San Mai is a "premium steel". It is more expensive to produce than a blade in "simple" VG1 and posesses improved characteristics over "simple" VG1 blade. Is it worth the increased price CS chargers for San Mai blades? Having owned and used more than one, I think it is but that just my opinion. Would a Master Tanto using Spyderco's Laminated ZDP-189 / 420J2 be even better? Quite possibly. Would a Master Tanto using Spyderco's Laminated ZDP-189 / 420J2 be even more expensive? Almost certainly.

Hey, but if you are happy about paying custom prices on mass produced knives using common materials, it's not my money...

And if arm chair experts are satified passing judgment the quality and properties of a knife they have never even held, based only on their opinion of the maker's marketing style, they can feel free to do so.

 

[antonio_luiz]

What are the pros and cons of INFI and SR-101 in comparison to each other, San Mai and other high grade steel?

Cheers.

San Mai is not a steel. It simply refers to knives made with 3-layers of steel - a hard Hagane supported on each side by as softer steel Jigane. A Kasumi is a knife that's made with only 2-layers - a Hagane and a Jigane. In both types the Hagane alone forms the cutting edge.

Pro's & con's of other steels compared to INFI? This is almost impossible to answer. Busse's INFI is a fantastic steel - but best ??? Best for what? Different uses require different steels and heat treats as well as shape and handles.

You can compare how different knives perform at different tasks but no steel is best at everything. INFI is arguably one of the best steels available for a beater but would it make as good a Kiritsuke as a traditional bi-metal one made with a blue steel Hagane? - I doubt it. For that matter, I'd love to see a toe to toe between 2 otherwise identical Competition Knives, one in INFI and the other in M4. My money would be on the latter
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