San mai yes or no

Greenberg Woods said:
How much added value do you put on the aesthetic benefits of san mai?
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I have knife on 68 - 70 hrc .It will break in half if a mosquito lands on tip .Laminated in san mai would make it more usable don t you think ? Laminated steel is not just for aesthetic .I will make tomorrow san mai with maxamet or Rex 121 if i find/learn why core split in half most time when i quench them :)
 
Don't quote me because I don't forge, but IIRC the reason why some san mai blades split down the middle of the core steel has something to do with the uneven rate of cooling during the quench. I may be wrong on that, so....
 
Natlek. Thanks for the test. As you said a failed weld is a failed weld. I dislike destructive tests but find they are necessary for my mental well-being.
However, either test, yours or the falken a1 wouldn't stop me from using them in real world use. In day to day life i don't hammer on my knives. I don't use them to cut steel or chop and bust concrete or try bending them like pretzels.
 
I vote no. Don't do it.

Prove me wrong:p
 
Seems like there is a difference between a bond and a weld. Mostly it's a bond. I saw break tests of damascus and there are similarities. Some have a clear homogenous break and some have uneven intermaterial breaks (debonding). Logically with harder cladding the bond is a weak point. Bond will hold longer with softer cladding.
Lorien said:
I vote no. Don't do it.
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+1 :)
 
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JoeBusic said:
Seems like there is a difference between a bond and a weld. Mostly it's a bond. I saw break tests of damascus and there are similarities. Some have a clear homogenous break and some have uneven intermaterial breaks (debonding). Logically with harder cladding the bond is a weak point. Bond will hold longer with softer cladding.

+1 :)
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Bonded or welded san mai hold more then I expected . Pure 12519 /63-64 hrc/ snaps on about 60- 70 degree .I don t know , lot of forces are involved in bend test ..... inner part want to compress the outer part want to stretch .....no wonder it would delaminate in some point .But when you will bend in use knife 120 degree?
What more test can I make with this ? Hammering on spine ? Or should I make razor 🤣
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Greenberg Woods said:
throughout most of history, high or even medium carbon steel has been very expensive and resource intensive to produce. Most edged implements from axes, chisels, and knives would have a tool bit welded in. Most swords, even those not classically associated with san mai like roman gladius and spatha swords, several viking broad swords and so on. The labor involved to make forge welds was just a lot smaller than the labor and charcoal involved in producing bloomery steel. So only what absolutely had to be steel was.

Now that massive foundries can produce high quality, consistent tool steel in bulk and hourly wages are much higher especially for skilled craftsmen, the labor of forge welding often has more value than a bar of 1095. To most ancient peoples a large piece of clean, high carbon steel would be an incredibly valuable commodity indeed.
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I was thinking about this point the other evening while cooking (ie, reaching for multiple kitchen knives) … and it occurred to me that, if bens point is correct (and itend to believe it is), then … *why* are a great majority of the knives i see sold from japan san mai versus monosteel? Yes, there are a lot that are Damascus clad, but those that are not seem to be mostly san mai? (The discussion about strength is good, but a kitchen knife just does not see that kind of stress…)
 
For the san mai kitchen knives, it is a few reasons. Tradition is one of them. Cost may be another. Mills will roll forge san mai sheets so the blades can be cut/stamped out for the factories instead of trying to forge weld each blade themselves. It's easier to do stainless that way than to do the forging yourself of carbon to stainless. The thinner core steel means less wear and tear on the machines to finish it than if they were using a mono steel that was fully hardened. It is also easier for the end user to repair/thin since the cladding is usually softer and there is less of the hard steel. It also allows for a knife to be straightened easier. I have some White #1 san mai blades that are around 63-64 rockwell for the core that I can bend back and forth to straighten. They are whisper thin too.

Another reason is with a high hardness core steel, the softer cladding is supposed to dampen the shock to the core steel to protect it to make it more durable. Lots of san mai is in the low 60's for the core steel, but some are in the 64-66 range like HAP40, and some Aogami Super from some places. I guess it would be like blue backing the spine of a chopper and leaving the edge hard. In this case, the sides are much softer and the core is hard all the way through to allow repeated sharpening. People claim there is a difference in use of a mono steel knife versus a san mai blade in terms of how the blade feels when hitting the board. The san mai blades feel more muted/softer on the board than the mono steel supposedly. I've never really felt much difference? Mono steel are usually less flexy/bendy than san mai blades, but it depends a lot on thickness and grinds.

Smiths may be able to cold forge san mai blanks easier to get more texture in the cladding or activity along the cladding line before heat treating as well? I know some US makers have bought the pre laminated stuff and forged it down further for their purposes, and I believe I saw some people talking about cold forging to upset the lamination line instead of it being just a straight line.

Last reason? I think people like the kasumi finish with the shiny core and matte cladding and the line people often mistake for a hamon. So I think there is some cosmetic value to it as well, even without fancy damascus or textures cladding!
 
TheEdge01 said:
I vote no! IMO the benefit of San Mai doesn’t equal or outweigh the cost when compared to mono steels.
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But yet (and this was my point), the san mai is what the japanese makers are marketing …. So why? Does their customer audience really look for the benefits described above?
 
I think they do! Look at how many US and Europe makers are now doing San Mai blades instead of mono steel! It is very popular right now and people are adding copper layers into the blades as well. A lot of it is about the looks and they sure look cool! Most don't care about the other benefits, they buy on looks along many times. Lots of people are buying and collecting knives, but not using them.

San Mai has been used for a loooong time with Cold Steel, MCusta, Puukko style blades, etc as well as the Japanese kitchen stuff. San Mai is hugely popular with buyers but I think that is due to the cosmetic aspect of them. Manufacturers like them for the cost savings (less hardened steel, faster grinding, etc) and other end users (people using kitchen knives or use knives often) like them for the same reasons (thinning/sharpening benefits, may be more shock absorbing). Curious to see where the market goes from here! Forged in Fire got San Mai very popular and brought it main stream.
 
Taz said:
I think they do! Look at how many US and Europe makers are now doing San Mai blades instead of mono steel! It is very popular right now and people are adding copper layers into the blades as well. A lot of it is about the looks and they sure look cool! Most don't care about the other benefits, they buy on looks along many times. Lots of people are buying and collecting knives, but not using them.

San Mai has been used for a loooong time with Cold Steel, MCusta, Puukko style blades, etc as well as the Japanese kitchen stuff. San Mai is hugely popular with buyers but I think that is due to the cosmetic aspect of them. Manufacturers like them for the cost savings (less hardened steel, faster grinding, etc) and other end users (people using kitchen knives or use knives often) like them for the same reasons (thinning/sharpening benefits, may be more shock absorbing). Curious to see where the market goes from here! Forged in Fire got San Mai very popular and brought it main stream.
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just to be clear ..... I am distinguishing between 3-layer san mai with plain steell on the outer layers, versus "san mai" with layered "damascus" at the outer layers (Stacy uses a term for the latter .... but I do not remember it). The "damascus" cladding has a definite cosmetic appeal, but the former, traditional 3-layer san mai with plain steel cladding has much less cosmetic appeal. I get why people would want the "damascus" blades (I have several myself), but rather I am asking whether there are really that many savvy buyers out there who really understand the potential maintenance benefits of true 3-layer san mai (many of which are barely detectable visually as being san mai......). But yet, many of these blades being sold.....
 
Cushing H. said:
But yet (and this was my point), the san mai is what the japanese makers are marketing …. So why? Does their customer audience really look for the benefits described above?
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To a point, it probably does. Plus, it’s something unique, and Japanese are known for high quality cutlery. I also think the FIF tv show plays a part in the surge of Damascus and San Mai sales nowadays. Some people know very little about steel, heat treat, or edge geometry but still want Damascus or San Mai because they seen Dave Baker and J Nielsen chop a block of ice and smash ceramic pots with it.
 
I know. I have seen san mai blades with a lot of character to them without damascus cladding, too though!

White #1 core, mild steel cladding. Still has nice activity and looks to it, even thought it is a simple san mai.
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A Japanese company Hiromoto used to make Aogami Super/SS clad blades. They have been since discontinued, but they have a cult like following in many circles. As stock blades go, the knives performed decently and the Aogami Super steel in the core was really nice. They didn't set the world on fire, more middle of the road blades IMHO from the ones I used. The san mai line had some ripples to it and IIRC, nickel between the core and cladding, and the carbon steel patina'd and darkened, which brought out the wavy line more, against the bright nickel and the stainless, which looks really cool. Then when people started thinning them up the blade road and the cladding line crept up and got more wild, they look awesome! People wanted them so badly!!! Other knives could arguable perform much better, but didn't look as cool. Google Hiromoto AS thinned images and you can see what they look like.

Even with the more plain/straight line san mai, there are tons of people who call the cladding line a hamon or quench line and think the blade is something that it isn't. People associate San Mai with hand crafted, forged blade and the marketing makes it sound superior to a mono steel blade. People believe what they read and buy with their eyes! It's hard to explain and pretty amusing! There are some users that understand what it truly is and seek it out for those reasons, the other buyers are drawn in by the cosmetics and marketing hype with the blades IMHO. They are cheaper for factories to produce (less producing grinding costs/time/abrasives, etc), but demand a price premium. They can be tougher or allow a harder core steel with softer cladding for better toughness/edge retention, but I think most of the customers are looking at cosmetics/hype as their reason for buying.
 
Cushing H. said:
I was thinking about this point the other evening while cooking (ie, reaching for multiple kitchen knives) … and it occurred to me that, if bens point is correct (and itend to believe it is), then … *why* are a great majority of the knives i see sold from japan san mai versus monosteel? Yes, there are a lot that are Damascus clad, but those that are not seem to be mostly san mai? (The discussion about strength is good, but a kitchen knife just does not see that kind of stress…)
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Why? Because people pay more for it. Saying your knife is tradional 3 layer japanese steel with a hard core and softer cladding sells.
 
Cushing H. said:
The "damascus" cladding has a definite cosmetic appeal, but the former, traditional 3-layer san mai with plain steel cladding has much less cosmetic appeal.
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The great thing about aesthetics is it's very personal. Hell, there are people who like American tanto tips :P

IMO, all the options can be functionally near enough, so it's all just fashion. Why is a customer buying A instead of B? Because they think it's cooler.
 
Taz said:
I know. I have seen san mai blades with a lot of character to them without damascus cladding, too though!

White #1 core, mild steel cladding. Still has nice activity and looks to it, even thought it is a simple san mai.
WhFmazc.jpg


A Japanese company Hiromoto used to make Aogami Super/SS clad blades. They have been since discontinued, but they have a cult like following in many circles. As stock blades go, the knives performed decently and the Aogami Super steel in the core was really nice. They didn't set the world on fire, more middle of the road blades IMHO from the ones I used. The san mai line had some ripples to it and IIRC, nickel between the core and cladding, and the carbon steel patina'd and darkened, which brought out the wavy line more, against the bright nickel and the stainless, which looks really cool. Then when people started thinning them up the blade road and the cladding line crept up and got more wild, they look awesome! People wanted them so badly!!! Other knives could arguable perform much better, but didn't look as cool. Google Hiromoto AS thinned images and you can see what they look like.

Even with the more plain/straight line san mai, there are tons of people who call the cladding line a hamon or quench line and think the blade is something that it isn't. People associate San Mai with hand crafted, forged blade and the marketing makes it sound superior to a mono steel blade. People believe what they read and buy with their eyes! It's hard to explain and pretty amusing! There are some users that understand what it truly is and seek it out for those reasons, the other buyers are drawn in by the cosmetics and marketing hype with the blades IMHO. They are cheaper for factories to produce (less producing grinding costs/time/abrasives, etc), but demand a price premium. They can be tougher or allow a harder core steel with softer cladding for better toughness/edge retention, but I think most of the customers are looking at cosmetics/hype as their reason for buying.
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Taz … there is some meat here (so to speak). The photos you post show something interesting … but the knives i have as examples are quite different and not nearly so …. Colorful. Sorry, late at night and im making dinner. Tomorrow will show shots of 2-3 knives that are san mai, but not nearly so beautiful. I love the appearance of your knives … but the ones ihave (and paid for) are … meh. (Sorry if im wrong, but i think the translation of that is … small, meaningless, not of consequence. ) ….
 
Yeah, I have seen and used some plain jane san mai blades before, so I know what you are saying! Most are pretty lackluster in the looks department!! Some perform very well, others are as plain as their looks. But like others said, its marketing. Hard core, soft cladding in many peoples minds automatically equals high quality/high performance, which we know often isnt true!
 
There is one really big difference performance wise, a momo steel is gonna flex and return to straight, the san mai almost always has soft cladding , will flex and stay bent. You ever smash garlic with the side of the blade , alot of san mai kitchen knives get all bent outa shape doing this
 
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