Sandvick 12C27

Why not try out a kershaw storm? It is in 13C26 steel which if I remember is supposed to be better than 12C27. It also has a RC of 59~61 which is comparable to some of the higher end steels. This kershaw in particular is only 30 bucks at wal-mart and it is fairly nice. If I remember this is how I have seen the steel charts:

154cm and ATS-34 are the same thing (just one is made in japan and the other here)
VG-10 is nice and is debatable to be better than 154 and ats-34
S30V is around the same as VG-10, but is known for being the only steel specifically designed for knives.

Now remember, once you start getting in the 60+ range of RC, the blades will perform just about the same, depending on who makes it, thus the above steels will be about the same.

Now for the rest:

440C and Sandvic 13C26 and AUS 10 are about the same: RC 58~60
440B and AUS 8 are below that: RC 56~58
440A and Sandvic 12C27 and AUS 6: RC 55~57
420HC: if its from buck then the RC is 56~58
420J2 and 420: RC 54~55
 
I'm gonna try not to get into the whole numbers comparison here....


I've been very, very, satisfied with Sandvik 12C27. It's a very good thing with my Mora's, and it's a wonderful thing to behold in my Helle's, and especially in my Bark Rivers- I really do believe that Mike Stewart has some serious heat treat mojo goin' on there at Bark River.

I once did some comparative testing with a carbon Mora and a 12C27 Mora- I cut paper strips cardboard, soup cans, whittled, etc. counted the exact same number of cuts on each knife, etc. I was pretty amazed to find that the 12C27 held an edge BETTER than the carbon steel, and only took an extra half dozen licks on the sharpener to bring it back to hair poppling sharp.

I don't believe MOST 12C27 will hold an edge nearly as well as most stainless steels, but it makes up for that in ease of sharpening. I don't personally believe the edge holding gained in the use of many modern steels justifies the extra effort when it IS time to resharpen. I've beat on my 12C27 blades plenty of times too, with no ill effect.

if you're eyeballing something in 12C27 that may be of interest, by all means....try it!!:D
 
mete said:
For those steels ,in order from best - 154CM, VG-10, 440C, AUS-8, 12C27.
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According to charts and blade steel facts it would go (vg-10,154cm,440c,aus8,12c27.)Vg-10 is a hair better then 154 cm but if you don't heat treat it right 154 cm could be better, vise versa.Its that close depending on the knife company.I have a ka bar mule folder made with aus8 and a cold steel recon 1 made with the same steel.I rolled over the edge on the ka bar but the cold steel held up. ka bar's aus8 isn't treated as well.(cold steel 's probibly more hard) I think aus8 is hardened 56-60ish.
 
batosai117 said:
Why not try out a kershaw storm? It is in 13C26 steel which if I remember is supposed to be better than 12C27. It also has a RC of 59~61 which is comparable to some of the higher end steels. This kershaw in particular is only 30 bucks at wal-mart and it is fairly nice. If I remember this is how I have seen the steel charts:

154cm and ATS-34 are the same thing (just one is made in japan and the other here)
VG-10 is nice and is debatable to be better than 154 and ats-34
S30V is around the same as VG-10, but is known for being the only steel specifically designed for knives.

Now remember, once you start getting in the 60+ range of RC, the blades will perform just about the same, depending on who makes it, thus the above steels will be about the same.

Now for the rest:

440C and Sandvic 13C26 and AUS 10 are about the same: RC 58~60
440B and AUS 8 are below that: RC 56~58
440A and Sandvic 12C27 and AUS 6: RC 55~57
420HC: if its from buck then the RC is 56~58
420J2 and 420: RC 54~55
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I agree with most of what you said.But if the steel has the same rc doesn't mean it will perform the same there are other factors such as toughness,corrosion resistance,ware resistance.Grain structure vandium content ect for sharpness.
 
gine said:
I agree with most of what you said.But if the steel has the same rc doesn't mean it will perform the same there are other factors such as toughness,corrosion resistance,ware resistance.Grain structure vandium content ect for sharpness.
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Of course, I fully agree with you, I was just in a hurry to get to my class when I wrote that post. I just meant that once you get into the higher end steels, which usually are around 60 Rc, it just depends on the company and the user as to which steel is best. Personally I love benchmade's 154cm and CRKT's Aus8. These aren't the only things that I've used, just the ones that have done well for me. For corrosion resistance, try to stay away from bead blast finishes, I've been told (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that it leaves pores on a very very small scale and thus leaves the actual blade open to oxidation and then corrosion (rust spots).
 
Steel has pores anyway that expand and contract (open and close [almost]) like our skin, so I don;t know if a bead blast affects it or not, but I'm thinking about your post now....maybe it can affect corrosion resistance.
 
FWIW, Noss4 did one of his infamous tests on a Gerber in 12C27. Seemed to do well enough.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=508454

Regarding rust, I did an informal test on an Eriksson 545 Mora in 12C27mod, with the blade completely etched using naval jelly as an etchant. The knife lived outside stuck in a tree stump in my back yard,where it got a nightly spritz of water from the sprinklers, for about two months. No rust whatsoever, despite the completely etched surface, and finger wagging about doing such a thing from forum members. Interestingly, the knife next to it, a Meyerco machete/axe/bowie thing in (non etched) 420J2 did rust. Which is curious because 420J2 is specifically touted as being highly corrosion resistant. The surface contamination angle has been brought up before, and may be a good enough explanation, but I suspect there may be some other voodoo that may be going on in some of these cases of mysterious rusting stainless steel.
 
Now I know gerber has gone kinda downhill in recent years (like since the good old 70's), but I had one of their knives, make that several of their knives with the bead blast finish, and after only a few days each one began to get rust spots. Now I know that these are different steels, but 440A is supposed to be more corrosion resistant than the sandvik steels. So I talked to my friend who runs a surplus shop and he explained how bead blast is an okay finish, but not the best when comparing it to the other finishes.
 
i guess buck is just putting out pure garbage with their 420hc then? after spending some time with a 110, i don't think so. great balance of sharpness, corosion resistance, ease of sharpening, etc etc. try one, i dare you!
 
I don't own many "super steel" knives, so my tastes may be strictly pedestrian, but I do like my 12C27 blades from Frosts. I wonder if, because it's a more affordable alloy, it can be used in cheaper knives by companies with more questionable heat treatments, whereas super steels raise the bottom line to such an extent that it's out of reach of cheap knives.
 
BillL said:
I was thinking of getting the Al Mar Falcon Ultralight which is in AUS 8. But it looks like AUS 8 doesn't have a good reputation and I'm hesitating, but I really like the looks and weight of that knife. By comparison 440C is a simpler steel than AUS 8 and I'm sure that the additional elements added in AUS 8 must be for improvement.
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I have an old (early 1970s) Gerber Folding Master Hunter with brass frame and 440C blade.

IMHO, it beats my AUS-8 blade by a mile.

I must admit, though, that my only blade of AUS-8 is a C.S. small Voyager, so it's possible that all AUS-8 isnt as bad as my knife, but after that damnable butter soft Voyager, I'd be reluctant to ever trust it again.

Especially now that S30V is so readily available. And don't believe the horror stories about S30V being impossible to sharpen. It isn't. And you sure don't have to sharpen it very often! :thumbup:
 
ginaz said:
i guess buck is just putting out pure garbage with their 420hc then? after spending some time with a 110, i don't think so. great balance of sharpness, corosion resistance, ease of sharpening, etc etc. try one, i dare you!
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Of course, buck's 110 is one of those 'Great American Knives' that is still mass produced. Buck has a great heat treatment and their 420HC is really good stuff. The edge retention and all of that other stuff is comparable to some of the higher up steels. The blade design and edge shape helps give it that overall good blade value that we always look for.
 
Lately I have been paying more attention to blade shape than steel. Don't get me wrong, I want good steel, but it is less important to me than other factors.
(On a side-note, I am absolutely dying to get a Fallkniven U2, as I hear that the thin blade profile, combined with the excellent steels used, create a fantastic slicer)

I learned that my inexpensive SAKs, which allegedly have steel similar to 12C27, perform remarkably well--even after "dull." This is a tribute to the thin blade profile, which I tend to prefer.

So...yeah, I think that the 12C27 is pretty good steel--if done correctly.
I also have a Frosts/Mora in stainless, and it seems remarkably rugged...and, again, has a very useful geometry.

Hmm...regarding rust, I believe I read somewhere that 12C27M is more corrosion resistant than the regular stuff...at least, I think I read that somewhere...
 
The very best 12C27 comes from Bark River Knife and Tool. Mike Stewart does things with the heat treat that the manufacturer says can't be done! They are after him for his secrets.....I don't think he is talking!
 
I wouldn't rank the alloys on one scale, I would rank them in groups.

12C27, AUS6, AUS8 would rank as fine-grained relatively tough stainless. If you like really sharp edges and don't want too much trouble sharpening I would pick from this group. The AUS8 is harder and more brittle than the other two.

440A, 440B, 440C, and ATS34 are high in coarse carbides and are wear resistant. They won't take extremely fine edges the way that the first group will, but they won't get dull as fast either. They are significantly harder to sharpen than the first group. The 440A and 440B are somewhat softer than 440C and ATS34 and hence are tougher.

I think of VG10 as a nice compromise between the first and second group. It is pretty wear resistant yet takes a fine edge. It is also sort of in the middle for toughness.

I like 12C27 for toughness and sharpness. I don't like 440C or ATS34.
 
Since Jeff just talked about toughness, here is a picture that Mike Stuart posted a while back on the BRKT forum. The knife is normally hardned 12C27 (well normal for a BRKT knife) and I foget what thickness the blade is, but it was pretty standard stock, probably 3/16 or similar. The blade returned to true.
 
okbohn said:
The very best 12C27 comes from Bark River Knife and Tool. Mike Stewart does things with the heat treat that the manufacturer says can't be done! They are after him for his secrets.....I don't think he is talking!
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I dont own a Bark River knife yet. I was checking out the Sandstorm. It is a chute knife design. It is in Sanvik 12c27, I believe. I was wondering why they were using that type of steel, as you don't see many American knives made with it. You have answered the question I had without asking it. What is you take on the Bark River heat treat. I am not familar with their knives at all.
 
rick43t3 said:
I dont own a Bark River knife yet. .
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Sir, you are culturally deprived! To have never have experienced a Bark River is like never having experienced a fine wine, or a prime steak, or a beautiful woman! :D

Get one immediately!:) Life is too short to spend another day without a "Barkie.";)
 
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