SAR Gear Container/Separator Recommendation?

[mtwarden]

Interesting. So then are the portables provided to the SAR teams by the sheriff's department (or whoever it is that coordinates them), or is each SAR member typically required to buy their own radio?

usually (but not always) they are provided by/through the Sheriff's Office- they typically oversee most SAR incidents; I know some of the teams have purchased some radios through grants, I don't know of any individual who has had to purchase their own

the new digital Motorolas are over $5000 a pop!!!

Shotgun- I agree that being ready to be self sufficient for 72 hours is a very good idea, it would be rare to actually have that happen, but better safe then sorry

 

[bulgron]

the new digital Motorolas are over $5000 a pop!!!

This sounds like one of those prices that they arrive at because the radio is only being sold to government agencies. Small volumes + deep pockets tends to raise prices considerably.

 

[Shotgun]

I know some of the teams have purchased some radios through grants, I don't know of any individual who has had to purchase their own

I believe you need a license to buy that type of radio don't you. Or maybe the license is for if you turn it on. LOL

This sounds like one of those prices that they arrive at because the radio is only being sold to government agencies. Small volumes + deep pockets tends to raise prices considerably.

Probably though I know the new ones that were just coming out when I left the team, '94-'95 , were pretty high tech. They even did this thing where when the signal jumped from one tower to another they switched frequencies to combat people listening in on scanners.

 

[mtwarden]

Motorola evidently cornered the market and has made a killing w/ these digital radios (portable and vehicle)- they do have a lot of features- the ability to send receive text/images, sophisticated encryption, trunking, better antenna, etc- but they are no way a "$5000" radio, well I guess they are because that's what they cost

quite frankly I never thought there was anything wrong w/ the old Bendix-King portables, you could program them yourself (w/ a cheap $40 plug)- they also had a AA battery clam shell available that was the cat's a$$

 

[bulgron]

Probably though I know the new ones that were just coming out when I left the team, '94-'95 , were pretty high tech. They even did this thing where when the signal jumped from one tower to another they switched frequencies to combat people listening in on scanners.

Uh, huh, hmmmm.... Why would it matter if someone was listening in on a scanner? Anyway, the reason why scanners are cool is because they can ... scan. So even the signal jumps, a scanner can just rescan until they re-acquire the signal again.

Sorry. I'm off on my own little tangent now.

 

[bulgron]

quite frankly I never thought there was anything wrong w/ the old Bendix-King portables, you could program them yourself (w/ a cheap $40 plug)- they also had a AA battery clam shell available that was the cat's a$$

LOL. A lot of the HAM radio guys who do emergency support like the Yaesu HTs because of their ability to work with AA batteries. Interesting, I see that the YAESU FT-60R can be had for $160.00. 5 Watts, dual band. Weighs around 13oz without the battery. The only problem I really see with it is that it is "water resistant" instead of "water proof". So don't drop it in the creek and it should be good to go.

The Yaesu VX-8GR is waterproof to 3 feet for 30 minutes, and it has a built-in GPS for APRS operations. That one's expensive -- $350.

Of course, my radio is a cadillac -- it does analog or digital communications, dual band, 5 watts, waterproof to 3 feet for 30 minutes. It cost $550.

Tell me about these $5000 radios, again?

 

[River-8]

Lots of good info/ideas here; Blade Forums again proving its value!

Our team has some guidance on the ol' 24 Hour SAR Pack here.

Perhaps more concepts than checklists - the idea being bring whatever it takes to operate safely, unsupported for 24 hours.

My preference is to layer gear, much like layering clothing.

• Base layer in my pockets or on my belt, basic tools for firecraft/shelter, etc.
• Second layer navigation, comms and personal protective equipment (PPE) and basic rigging (50' of 1" tubular webbing, carabiners, etc.). For me that is my PEST.
• Third layer is a pack, often a True North lumbar type pack with the bulkier stuff to include extra clothing, kitchen, water filter, etc. ...

Now the important stuff: Training!

• Classroom training is great to find out what you need to know...
• Personal 'dirt time' is needed to sharpen individual skills, navigation (day/night, without GPS) is a good example.
• Team field training is ideally where personal skills are blended in a team environment - and can be quite entertaining!

The best SAR-types I've run into are those for whom SAR is more of a lifestyle than a hobby.

Yet more of my $.02,
8

 

[Duzzy]

Snip.

Truthfully, I didn't expect there to be a "standard" search. But part of me feels that there should be a way to find out "general expectations". I should expect to go this long without a break, or this long without sleep, or this long without going back to my car, etc. And I "know" that the only real way to figure all of this stuff out is to start going on rescues and to participate in field work but it's a nice mental placebo to try and get things sorted out in advance.

I was thinking that clothing and the FAK would go at the very top of my pack. I'm thinking more and more that I might get two small thermos type containers to fill up the water bottle holders on the belt and have them hold survival essentials and other things that need to be quickly accessible. I think that if everything else is in a stuff sack it should be easily accessible even if it's buried a little.

Lots of good info/ideas here; Blade Forums again proving its value!

Our team has some guidance on the ol' 24 Hour SAR Pack here.

Perhaps more concepts than checklists - the idea being bring whatever it takes to operate safely, unsupported for 24 hours.

My preference is to layer gear, much like layering clothing.

• Base layer in my pockets or on my belt, basic tools for firecraft/shelter, etc.
• Second layer navigation, comms and personal protective equipment (PPE) and basic rigging (50' of 1" tubular webbing, carabiners, etc.). For me that is my PEST.
• Third layer is a pack, often a True North lumbar type pack with the bulkier stuff to include extra clothing, kitchen, water filter, etc. ...

Now the important stuff: Training!

• Classroom training is great to find out what you need to know...
• Personal 'dirt time' is needed to sharpen individual skills, navigation (day/night, without GPS) is a good example.
• Team field training is ideally where personal skills are blended in a team environment - and can be quite entertaining!

The best SAR-types I've run into are those for whom SAR is more of a lifestyle than a hobby.

Yet more of my $.02,
8

I just looked at the links you provided, and I kind of lived out your way when I was younger (Port Orchard, WA and Kennewick, WA). Not that I'm exactly old now but...

Your 24 Hour Pack "concept" is fairly different from ours and I'm not sure if it's because the East Coast wilderness is so frequently travelled, difference in vegetation, or maybe even the laws? I've never heard anyone talk about a machete, larger fixed blade, helmet, etc. Still, it's cool to get a look at the issues from a different perspective. And once I finally get on the road and hit the trail maybe I'll have some more answers for my self.

Thank you everyone for all the help. Searching for "SAR" or "Search and Rescue" on BladeForums can be maddening. Too many knives with those names.

 

[bulgron]

I was thinking that clothing and the FAK would go at the very top of my pack. I'm thinking more and more that I might get two small thermos type containers to fill up the water bottle holders on the belt and have them hold survival essentials and other things that need to be quickly accessible.

Thermo's are too heavy. Will nalgene bottles fit? If so, I'd put two of these in the pockets and fill them up with gear. Not only are they indestructible, but they're also water proof (being water bottles and all), and the wide-mouth makes it possible to put more stuff in there.

 

[Duzzy]

Thermo's are too heavy. Will nalgene bottles fit? If so, I'd put two of these in the pockets and fill them up with gear. Not only are they indestructible, but they're also water proof (being water bottles and all), and the wide-mouth makes it possible to put more stuff in there.

I have no idea to be honest. The only water bottles I have at the moment are Kleen Kanteens of the 40oz Widemouth variety--so I assume a Nalgene should fit just fine... In looking at the Kleen Kanteen site though I see that they have 12oz Widemouth bottles now, and though I hate the KK widemouth lids with a passion, the might just be the right size to ride the holders without permanently stretching the elastic. And I do like my SS...

What do you think?

 

[bulgron]

I have no idea to be honest. The only water bottles I have at the moment are Kleen Kanteens of the 40oz Widemouth variety--so I assume a Nalgene should fit just fine... In looking at the Kleen Kanteen site though I see that they have 12oz Widemouth bottles now, and though I hate the KK widemouth lids with a passion, the might just be the right size to ride the holders without permanently stretching the elastic. And I do like my SS...

What do you think?

I like kleen kanteens for around town use, but find them too heavy for on the trail. You might be thinking of the SS, though, so you can boil water in it. If so, I'd still do the plastic Nalgenes to store things in, then get one SS (or, better yet, Ti) pot or bottle for food and water prep.

Remember, though, that my opinions are formed entirely by recreational outdoors experience. You may well find that there's a good reason to carry SS bottles around for SAR use that I know nothing about. Still, when it comes to hiking long distances, saving weight is a good idea.

The plastic Nalgene bottle that I pointed you at will carry about a liter of water and weighs 3.5 oz. From long use in the field, I can tell you that it will not dent, crack, split or break. I've read about people dropping these things off a cliff and even running over them with a car. They continue to function.

A 40 oz capacity Kleen Canteen wide mouth bottle (uninsulated) weighs in at 7.4 oz without the cap. These will dent and are not crush proof. On the other hand, you can boil water in the Kleen Canteen, while with the nalgene you're out of luck. On the other hand (am I out of hands yet?) water treatment tablets weigh nothing, take up very little space, and can eliminate most nasty bugs from water in around 30 minutes -- and you won't have to build a fire in order to get drinkable water in an emergency situation.

It's all about the trade offs. However, you said your main reason for wanting the bottles is to store gear in them. Given that, I'd go with the nalgene.

Just my two-bits.

 

[mtwarden]

just my .02 I'm not a big fan of storing gear in water bottles personally- I've seen survival kits sold that way and never thought much of the idea (like what are you going to do w/ the kit when you need the container for water?). If you don't need the pockets for water (where are you going to be storing your water?), I'd consider another pouch to fit in them- something that is easier to access the items and something lighter.

 

[Duzzy]

Snip.

Actually, the need to boil water is not a huge issue for me. As silly as this sounds my main preference for SS is that I feel more comfortable bleaching SS than plastic, boiling it is just a nice side effect. Currently, we both have the same amount of SAR experience, and I still very much value your input.

I actually have a SS cup in my gear (that I forgot to list) specifically so that I don't ever have to let someone else drink out of my hydration bladder. I'm not a "germaphobe" by any stretch of the imagination, but I know enough to know that I don't really know anything about the potential dangers--so why not take reasonable precautions?

Thank you.

*Edit*

Curses! You replied while I was writing.

Snip.

The water will go here:

I already have one 3L hydration bladder in one pocket, and I'm thinking of keeping a water bottle on the other side. These pockets sit right behind the straps and I "believe" that they nest with the internal frame of the pack (huge emphasis on the "believe"). They're tall and narrow so they aren't ideal for too many items other than water. The bottle holder pockets are removable, but I was thinking that they're right there so why not try and find a use for them?

It certainly doesn't make it a good idea, but who knows until you try right? I was primarily considering a water bottle/thermos system because they're usually pretty tough and waterproof. I think it would also be cool if I could get a similar attachment system put onto my FAK (then I would just remove the holders and keep my FAK there), but that takes money I don't have right now.

Thanks for the help!

 

[bulgron]

Duzzy, it occurs to me that you should just take your best guess at the gear you'll need, based on your own personal preferences, then go out and do a three day hike with your set up. See if it works for you. Then, when it comes time to do an actual mission, at least you'll know that what you have works for you and you can make adjustments from there.

I know, you'll probably end up having to back track some after you find out what the reality of a SAR mission is, but at least you'll start out with a setup that you are personally comfortable with.

Something mentioned in this thread, but which I don't think was stressed enough, was for you to find a good way to carry things in front of your body. Even as a recreational backpacker/hiker, I'm forever looking for better ways to carry gear in front of me that doesn't add too overly much to my heat loading.

Last weekend on an overnight hike in the Sierras, I put the following on my front pack:

- GPS
- Compass
- Video Camera
- Camera
- ACR PLB
- Cliff bar
- Mini gorilla pod tripod
- StickPic
- small flashlight
- spare batteries/SD cards for the cameras

On my hip belt (which is set up for this kind of thing), I was also carrying:

- Water filter
- lunch
- PSK (easily removed for when I take the pack off ... contains a SAK, a few bandages, spare compass, fire making gear, signaling gear, etc.)
- Busse SAR-3
- sunscreen
- bug repellent
- work gloves
- fishing gear
- fuel for my camp stove

(Maps and bandanas were in my pants pockets.)

Without any trouble at all, I can add a hand held HAM radio to the mix. I haven't yet, mostly because I doubt it's utility in the back country, but I can easily do it if I find a justification for it.

Except for the camp stove fuel (which was just there to balance the belt more than anything else), all that stuff is there because it's stuff that I think I might need as I'm wandering through my day. Not only does it help to balance the load on my back, but it's also terribly convenient. I LOVE being able to get at gear without taking off my pack. And some stuff (like the fishing gear), is nice to be able to get easily get at, even though realistically I'll be dropping my backpack to use it. By organizing my gear in this way, I don't have to get into anything on my backpack until I reach camp -- well, except for my hydration bladder if I decide to refill it at some point during the day. But that hangs on top of all my other gear on the backpack, so it's just as easy to get at as anything on my front pack.

I have to imagine that a SAR team member has similar needs, only possibly much more urgent.

If I was you, I'd give a lot of thought to front pack setups. There have been some suggestions offered up-thread. Pay attention to them. They look like good suggestions to me.

(By the way, the front pack that I use is integrated into my backpack by the manufacturer, so unless you're going to start using a Molly Mac Pack, what I use is not an option for you. Just thought I'd forestall the next most obvious question. )

 

[Duzzy]

Snip.

I think that you're right on both counts. A 2 or 3 day outing with my gear would be extremely helpful in judging the adequacy of my gear, and a front side method of gear hauling would be beneficial. Unfortunately, I'm short on time and money so I'm doing what I can--and hoping that it's better than nothing. If nothing else I feel better for at least "attempting" to do something.

Things on my "List'O'Consideration" are:

Vest
1.5" Webbing
550 Paracord
CPR Mask (I should already have one, but just in case.)
Water Tablets (I have a liquid solution used in conjunction with a filter, but I don't know how it fares as a standalone.)
Maps
Bandana
Small Towel

But right now it's stuff sacks, a dry bag, and hopefully enough left over to pay for my CPR training if I can't get my work to do it.

 

[Killinumsoftly]

What about rope and any type of climbing rescue gear? Or are you in a flat area with no cliffs or rocky type mountains? If you are I'd suggest a nice rope, ATC rappel/belay device, couple carabiners, nylon for anchor building and a pulley to make 3:1 or 6:1 systems to lift heavy weight easier. It's doable with binders but the pulleys are easier and you can use them for Tyrolean traverse if needed. Just a few options if you'll be working in the mountains.

Also if you can find out some of the people on the team usually there will be a list of everyone's phone numbers so they can contact them during a SAR situation. Maybe call a few of the guys been doing it a while and ask what they carry. Usually they will tell you what you'll use and what you won't as they have been doing it a while