SAR Pack Question

Hikeeba : I like this pack but it is not quite what i am looking for I also would highly recomend LA rescue to anyone as this is what our current jump bags and my own small pack is.


Rescue Mike: this is a direction I considered and I think it is a really good Idea, It is on the list I am bringing to the Powers that be.

Thanks to you both for your suggestions
 
Vests are good for missions requiring only basic gear or if the individual gear is not bulky.

My only gripe about vests (besides capacity) is that they are hot as hell on humid days when you are working hard as your chest area is covered and does not vent heat well at all. At least with a pack your chest is exposed to vent.

YMMV

Skam
 
I have fairly significant search experience, 20+yrs with 11 years of professional experience including 7 EMS with secondary search duties and 4 years of experience when my primary duties are rural search and tracking. I've done a good bit of search/tracking at night. However, seach duties vary from area to area, so let me add a few thoughts about your lists. These are just my experience as to what works for me in the areas I have worked. YMMV.

1 primary flashlight (2c or larger)

A big flashlight has no place on my belt or in my pack. Why?

First, there are many small lights that are brighter than C or D cell lights for "bright light" uses. Bright lights are primarily used for tactical situations (basically blinding bad guys), not searches. If you are stopping through the wild waving a bright light around, your not focusing on the dirt as you should be. I do carry a tactical bright light, a rechargeable Streamlight Strion. Recharging is a must have feature because I end up using the light every night and 123 lithiums aren't cheap. A small spare Strion battery or two along with the light weigh about as much as two spare batteries for a C or D cell maglite. If rechargeability isn't important to you, you can buy low cost tac lights at Chinaworld for not much these days. A small light allows me to carry more water.

Second, my primary flashlight for search/mantracking is a 3AA LED streamlight task light. Contrary to conventional wisdom, night time is the best time to mantrack. An LED (especially when used at a low angle) throws excellent shadows and makes tracking (or cutting for sign) easy. In my experience, trying to use a bright light for night search operations is severely detrimental to your efforts. The bright light will often washout the footsign making it much, much harder if not impossible to track especially with the older windblown sign that you are often forced to try to follow in a SAR situation. The LED light will last for several nights of continuous use. And a few spare AA batteries will also serve as backup for my other items, GPS and nightvision. I wish I had the option of carrying a AA powered handheld radio to simplify my battery needs.

I personally will never use a camel back rig.

I carry a camelback with two 3 liter bladders, and it's barely enough for use in Arizona. I too am not enamored with bladder type packs. It's an ok idea, but I find that when I really want water, I have to struggle to suck it out. It works for sipping, but you cannot gulp down a large amount. Once you find the person you are searching for, they will almost always be in need of fluids. Camelbacks just don't work well for sharing. You can open the cap and pour it into something, if they have a cup. I often carry extra water in 1 liter bottles off the shelf (aquafina or whatever) and sometimes freeze one to keep everything else cool. But all in all I find that camelbacks are more hype than function. One could get by just as well with a Nalgenes or similar bottles.

I actually prefer the GI 2 quart canteen, although there is no canteen cup to fit on the bottom of it like the nalgene.

Also, add a taylor's cloth measuring tape or other small measuring tape to your kit. Measurements of the footsign are the first thing you need to communicate when you are tracking.

basic tools (srew driver, pliers)
I carry a pocket multitool. I prefer one with a serated edge, saw, can opener, and, of course, pliers. A few screwdriver options are there as well. Brand wouldn't matter much to me.

Not sure if you are thinking of tools for extrication or not, but I wouldn't issue each guy a set of these. The weight adds up quickly, even if you only add handtools and a prybar or hacksaw. I would carry fluids (canteens and maybe IV) before I carried handtools. The search team member will have to rely on another responding unit to bring extication tools, folding stretchers, O2 and all that stuff, if needed, once the quarry has been found.

As for the pack, all of those mentioned seemed good enough. I would try to keep the gear as light as possible. I've seen many excellent sar types who carry little more than a buttpack and canteens. I'd probably start there and add a small pack if necessary for the amount of time you will be in the field.

EMT's tend to pack more medical gear than they really need. You need to be light and cover plenty of ground with as little fatigue as possible. And you must carry water, maybe lots of water. If you're tired, you are more less to find the subject. Finding the person, then beginning to warm them and hydrate them while the cavalry responds is the goal. Carrying extra sam splints, pony 02 bottles, or extrication tools can weigh your searchers to the point of ineffectiveness. Don't forget the primary goal. You must avoid the temptation of getting too big a pack and doing just that.
 
A big flashlight has no place on my belt or in my pack. Why?

First, there are many small lights that are brighter than C or D cell lights for "bright light" uses. Bright lights are primarily used for tactical situations (basically blinding bad guys), not searches. A small light allows me to carry more water.

Second, my primary flashlight for search/mantracking is a 3AA LED streamlight task light. In my experience, trying to use a bright light for night search operations is severely detrimental to your efforts.



I carry a camelback with two 3 liter bladders, and it's barely enough for use in Arizona. I too am not enamored with bladder type packs. It's an ok idea, but I find that when I really want water, I have to struggle to suck it out. But all in all I find that camelbacks are more hype than function. One could get by just as well with a Nalgenes or similar bottles.


As for the pack, all of those mentioned seemed good enough. I would try to keep the gear as light as possible. I've seen many excellent sar types who carry little more than a buttpack and canteens. I'd probably start there and add a small pack if necessary for the amount of time you will be in the field.


Nemoaz,

While I agree with much of what you say (great points) there are some issues that need discussion.

Flashlights and lights in general are a huge topic. The thread starter I believe is not going to be mantracking per say if I understand correctly but more of an urban EMT SAR in support of other agencies. That said there is no light bright enough to illuminate a scene for safety.
Small lights are good for tracking as you say as I use them myself but when covering ground looking for clues, deceased or alive subjects in a known area bright is bright and light is light. Many times I have found clues with a bright lamp after a team member went over the same area with a sheeple torch.

Burn time is crucial and battery weight and availability must be respected. This eliminates any CR123 type tac lights as they dont fit the bill with burn time or availability when needed. LED's are fine if they are bright enough to safely light an area. Remember, we are not Tom Brown type mantracking per say. A balance must be struck between what you can carry vs function and reliability. There are lights out there that fit this criteria as I mentioned before.

Bladder type water containers have revolutionized hydration away from the tap. Some traditionalists have issues with them mostly unfounded. Water flow rates are fine if you have a decent nozzle on the hose, high flow rate nozzles are available and effective. Sharing water has never been a problem as they can draw off mine or the bladder can be pressurized and poured into a vessel. The huge difference in water volume carrying ability is praised and coveted by all in the mideast war theater for a reason. They work and work well. The ole timers I have seen that try bladders never go back to hard side water carry and admit to misconceptions about the system.

TOOOOOO! many times I have seen so called "excellent SAR types" with a mere buttpack and canteen need extraction from an op as they carried too little gear for the mission and became a liability. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO CARRY A PROPER MINIMUM LOAD IN A BUTTPACK. You just aint carrying enough gear to support yourself let alone lost subjects for 24+ hrs it cant be done. This said one must strike a balance between too much gear, not enough and what you can carry and still get the job done without putting yourself at risk.

As a SAR team captain, search manager and WEMT I expect 100%, each and every one of my team to be able to hump a 20lb+ summer SAR pack for a minimum of 12 hrs without any substantial rest period of more than 20 mins every couple hrs. If this is not feasible then one must take a look at their own fitness level or age and make some hard decisions. Each environment has its own challenges and gear that needs to support "you" the searcher in it. In winter the pack weight goes to 30-40lbs. Not having the ability to manage this load you ARE! a liability to your team. A good team leader will know this and refuse your participation. I never want to lend more batteries, food, water or clothing to another ill equipped searcher again. "SAR is not for the well intentioned but for the serious".

AS far as too much medical gear goes the only limit is you. If you are a mule and can hump it, it goes, if not then a new plan and gear triage must take place but make no mistake there will be medical gear for my subjects when I find them. The whole idea is to treat once found and without toys and gear you are limited to a smart first aider level of care. This goes for urban and wilderness SAR as there is no difference only terrain and materials.

We are all on the same team but it is important to note different experiences.

"So others may live"

Skam
 
nemoaz : I thank you for your advise, it is always nice to hear from those more experienced than myself,

:D As far as the lights go Skammer is correct that this is mainly an urban/ suburban environ, as im sure you know More light is often needed to search these areas because of shadows and glares from street lights, porch lights, passing cars etc. Plus my guys may find themselved directing traffic, or crossing streets, I want them to have a good amount of light, I am looking right now at the Brightstar 4 AA, And mabey a head lamp. ( I have the brightstar angle head and its Fantastic)

I use a priceton tech EOS In the woods, with a mini mag LED for back up. I also usually bring another couple small LED lights for good measure.:thumbup:

I dont know where I said, I never use camel packs, I use them all the time, Hydration baldders, are easier to use, you dont need to gulp water because the conveinence allows you to sip as you move rather than waiting till you are thirsty plus they compact as they empty. a 1 liter Nalgene with cup is part of my kit, partially for ease of refilling, as well as the ability to share, and add Gatorade etc.


I agree with the multi tool, As well as the Idea of diferentiating packs, (one guy with 02 one guy with an AED, ane guy with strecher, one with tools etc)


As far as more medical gear than we need I think you are correct about many EMTs, When i began SAR I had to trim my medical pack four times before my first trip afield just to make it fit, And I have trimmed it several times since then, It will take some tweaking to get to just what we need, But I also dont want to get caught in a situation where we cant at least start care, while waiting for the cavalry.


I Agree that a balance has to be struck between being over prepared and being under prepared, Thats also Why I asked for advise, Since you may point out things I Forgot or things that I included that were unnessisary.
 
TOOOOOO! many times I have seen so called "excellent SAR types" with a mere buttpack and canteen need extraction from an op as they carried too little gear for the mission and became a liability. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO CARRY A PROPER MINIMUM LOAD IN A BUTTPACK.

Like I said, I disagree. I do this every day and I could carry everything I need to survive in a buttpack. (However, I've already told you that I do carry a camelback with two bladders and extra nalgene knockoffs.)

I too was a volunteer SAR team captain two decades ago and ran around with an ALICE pack full of useless stuff. When I became a paramedic twenty years ago, then I started carrying even more medical equipment, mostly bandages, splints, fluids, and airway equipment. Despite responding to hundreds of SARs in my early years and participating in many finds (mostly due to ELTs), I never once used a single piece of medical equipment. Never once.

I'm in pretty decent shape. I used to carry 50+ pound packs. But I learned long ago that carrying a large pack, I cover much half the ground that I could if I wasn't loaded down like a government mule. Even if you are an Army Ranger, you will cover only a fraction of the ground you could. The name of the game is finding the trail and following it as quickly as you can before some well meaning volunteer firefighter or boy scout bumbles across the path (while scanning the horizon) and obliterates the sign. To do that, you must be as fast as possible. With a long lasting LED light, I can easily cover the area I must visually inspect, the ground in front of me where the next footsign is. Even if the child is hidden off to my light and would be within the illumination area of a streamlight or maglight, it isn't important. The footsign will lead me to the child.

In my current position, we have a guy with a quite few years in, but no real search & tracking tracking He really isn't good for much other than driving or walking around to culverts and such and looking under them with his million candlepower portable spotlight. Of course, he has never found anyone.

I agree that there may be some urban SAR opportunities that may fit the bill for what you describe. I'm not up on urban SAR and defer to you and others on these areas. I guess you are imagining a Katrina type situation. Not sure what other scenarios might be common in urban sar. Lost child?

But in an rural scenario, if you aren't cutting for sign or actively tracking, you are merely walking on the sign that a tracker could follow... and wasting your time. Carry whatever you want if that is what you intend to do. However, if you aren't going to take time (basically a week or two then some dedicated dirt time) to at least learn the basics of mantracking, there really isn't a snowballs chance in hell you will ever help someone in a SAR situation. Why waste the time? And if you are following the sign, then a small light is what you need.

I started out with an national organization that thought SAR was standing in lines and walking around waving million candlepower flashlights. They of course were never able to cover more than a fraction of a percentage of the possible area in which the target could be found. They couldn't have covererd the area with 10,000 men using their tactics.

I took my first NASAR FUNSAR in 87. They were the first to break me of the bad habits learned with the first. No more big packs, army bivouacs, and walking a straight lines while watching the guy to your left and right while shining your light under bushes.

As for sharing water with a camelback not being a problem, I would tell you I've found many, many people and every single one of them were thirsty and severely dehydrated. Of those that aren't dead already, none had medical problems that required anything more than a bandaid.

Carry an AED if you want. I won't be. FIND the person and FAST. Then call for ALS if you need it. Our helicopters can be anywhere in minutes.

Just wondering, what equipment have you used out of these 50 lb packs? How often have you been involved in urban sar and what are the typical scenarios?

I see tham as part SAR part mass incident packs

SAR and mass incident packs are not really compatible.
 
Nemoaz, Im not really sure who you are arguing with, Me or a Skammer. But a couple of things :cool:

First off I am not talking about 50 Lb packs, Or 10 Million candle power spot lights. I am talking about small handheald lights, and 1000-2000 cu inch packs


Secondly I took Funsar I am a Sar tech and I am "Track Aware" I do not claim to be a tracker by any means. I do know how to cut tracks, and use a tracking stick, I know the pitfalls of jump tracking, and worse yet the "Conga Line" searches so often used. I also understand that a trained two man hasty team is often more successfull than 20 police cadets, or volunteer firefighters.

I am basing my packs contents largley off of the NASAR lists for Gear with some addidtions for the EMS Nature of my group. I agree again that Emts do have a habbit of going overboard when it comes to medical gear, I am trying to avoid that but There are things I wont go without.


If you go by the minimums Nasar recomends for a 24 hour pack it would be difficult to pack everything in a but pack, especially in cold weather.

I appreciate your advise but as you said you are not really knowladgable about urban searches. yes we look for missing children, Runaways, Dementia patients from local nursing homes, Eloped Psychs from the local Psych wards, Despondant teens, and occasionaly a lost Hiker in a state park.

My townships current Idea of a search is to have every firefighter tromp around the woods with a "Lite Box" yelling the persons Name. I am trying to improve upon this system.


My gear for wilderness searches is different and may be a different post some day but not today.

The Idea that An Urban SAR pack and a Pack for an individual responder at an urban MCI are not compatible is Really not true. My squad Rescponded to huricaine floyd, and to the World Trade Center on september 11th, We have also responded to hotel fires, building colapses, and other incidents which involved searches and more importantly involved individual members or small groups having to be self reliant as far as food, hydration, PPE, and other basics until the command structure got around to taking care of the resuers, This is the type of incident(outside of missing person incident) that I see these packs used for.
 
Nem,

Appreciate your experiences very much.

Nobody on my team is going in the woods without basic gear to keep them alive and fit and have some gear for the lost subject. I have winter in my area and this includes a leeping bag and cold weather gear as hypothermia is a real threat all year round. To carry this kit in a butt pack is not possible.

Last year I made 2 finds personally (assisted in many others), one I mantracked (I am tracker trained) and came across tracks and followed the direction of travel to the deceased subject in the daytime. The other was a father son who were gone 2 days and tired/weak and saw bright lights from the search lights and yeld out at which time we moved on the sound, they ended up prehypothermic and were wrapped with gear we carried and had to wait for a morning extraction due to weather. 99% of the gear we used to warm them would not have fit in a butt pack.

Our team is a busy one and we average 3-4 calls per month and I have been doing this for a decade so I am no rookie.

Different experiences I suppose, all need to be shared and appreciated in such a thread.

Skam
 
I took Funsar I am a Sar tech and I am "Track Aware" I do not claim to be a tracker by any means. I do know how to cut tracks, and use a tracking stick, I know the pitfalls of jump tracking, and worse yet the "Conga Line" searches so often used.

Last year I made 2 finds personally (assisted in many others), one I mantracked (I am tracker trained)

Great! Good to hear the news is getting out some. Less Conga lines and less obliterated sign mean more found bodies. Obviously, this is a pet peave of mine. (You knew that didn't you.)

Ems, I love the "Conga line search." Hope you haven't trademarked it.

Different experiences I suppose, all need to be shared and appreciated in such a thread.

Yep. Good luck with the search for the packs. :) I would definitely suggest something EXTREMELY modular. Your not gonna want Masscas equipment on most searches. If the pack is left in the truck all the time, you're wasting your money.
 
Great! Good to hear the news is getting out some. Less Conga lines and less obliterated sign mean more found bodies. Obviously, this is a pet peave of mine. (You knew that didn't you.)

.


Nem,

I thought congo line techniques were a thing of the past at least with modern serach theory made available through orgs like NASAR.

Apparently not. We rarely grid search unless its an evidence search for police but rather employ 3 person hasty teams to high prob areas within the differnet zones and utilize sign cutting, tracking etc... for 99% of searches with good result.

"Managing the Lost Person Incident" is the manual of choice for modern search theory. Its under rewrite I believe now to upgrade. It was the manual for my SAR managers course and very well put together.

Skam
 
I thought congo line techniques were a thing of the past at least with modern serach theory made available through orgs like NASAR.

I wish. But it seems like the trained teams don't arrive until well after the well-meaning fire departments and neighborhood posse have trampled everything within 3 miles.

Skam & EMS, I generally do not carry a sleeping bag, though I sometimes carry an extra poncho to be used as a bivvy. It just isn't THAT cold here in Arizona, and I rarely INTEND to spend the night. Calling for a ride back to our base is usually the end result of a day of searching. Radios need recharged and their is generally relief available if I'm just cutting. But if I'm actually following sign, I may catch a nap if needed. If I do, 4 hours by a fire with my either a tarp or poncho and some local vegetation does the job.

It's very rare for it to be less than 20 degrees here.
 
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