Saw Farenheit 9/11

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hollowdweller

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Sep 22, 2003
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Definately not what I expected. Not near as funny as some of his other films. There were a few cheap shots at Bush, but thank God cause it needed some comic relief cause it would have been hard to watch otherwise. I mean especially the second half was so sad and tragic it kept us choked up.

I can see why that this film won the award it did. It tells a story nobody else is telling about the war.

The first part about Bush we've all heard before nothing new. The part where it explores the various business relationships between the Bush's, Saudis, Bush's administration and the various oil companies and defense contractors is in much greater detail than I had seen before.

However the really unique and heartbreaking part of this movie is it really shows the war from both sides. I'm sure the arab media shows the suffering and pain the arabs are suffering, but not the US soldiers point of views. Our media doesn't really cover either, we just hear about the latest scandal or casualties in an impersonal sort of way. This film shows the reality on both sides and it is really hard to watch if you are an old softie like me.

After the movie was over the theatre was quiet and people quietly filed out. Definately not your usual humerous Michael Moore stuff.
 
Well, i've seen "Roger and Me", and "Bowling for Coumbine" on television. Don't know if anything was edited out for broadcast. I have also read the extensive well-documented instances of less-than-representative and outright fabrications and conflations that were present in BfC. I picked up on some of them myself while viwing the movie.

I see no reason to expect differnt from his latest production.

My main beef is with calling BfC a documentary, and from what I have seen, similar manipulations are now being compiled regarding his latest project.

I don't doubt that this person lacks the skills to produce a wrenching, moving film that can perhaps encourage one to view a provocative topic from a new viewpoint. But one must be honest about what one is doing ,and quite frankly, about what one represents himself as.

Mr. Moore, to my mind has failed to meet up to these obligations that would command my respect. Regardless of his affectations, the man is not now a "common Joe" as he claims nor does he live like one. BfC "documents" things that never happened.

One of the most moving works of film I ever saw was "Johnny got His Gun", and it has had a lasting impact on me.

But nobody has ever called it a documentary, including the person who made it. Nor did the person that made it claim to be an ordinary working schmoe. Most artists that actually find themselves in the postition to make a lucrative living from producing art are intelligent or honest enough not to make such a claim.

For me, the behavior of the man and the way he has plied his trade have greatly retarded what-ever positive impact his skills could have provided.

I have tried to restrain myself, since the last time I wrote about this topic, the thread was shortly thereafter locked, for whatever reason.

I don't contest that the action may have been appropriate.

"Art" can truely reflect reality, or it can stimulate thought or reflection, sometimes through the most tortured of extrapolations or acts of reductio ad absurdum.

We place ourselves in peril when we fail to make the distinction, or let others make it for us.

Some very strange and yes, clinically ill people have been skilful artists. That doesn't mean that they have a special grip on the truth, but maybe a skill to stimulate others to perhaps think about things differently enough to find for themselves what the truth is.

Most try to leave it at that, and don't claim to create the truth.

Big difference.
 
Hollowdweller didn't want to read all the off topic garbage on the HI forum and wanted to remove the off topic and stuff and keep it more strictly knife oriented. When it was made clear the forum wasn't going to be change to suit him and a few others, he repeatedly tried to introduce politically sensitive topics in the hope of dragging down the forum 'til we forbade political issues.

As N2S observed, we are political creatures. When bad things happen to good people the political system is usually a part of the problem. Uncle Bill wants HI to remain a haven for those of us who have problems with life. He wants us to be able to speak from the heart without having to weigh each word when vomiting it up is in order. Those in angst aren't held as accountable, as they aren't thinking straight at the time, and understandably so.

The life aint fair thread got moved to the Back End forum. Hollowdweller won't disrupt the HI forum anymore to further his own agenda of what HI should be. Others who hold similar opinions can excersize their option to go elsewhere.

Look, be helpful and not contentious and (edit)treat(close edit) others with lovingkindness, tolerance, and try to put yourself in the others shoes.

Faugghhh!!! (edit)Doing this stuff just about physically makes me feel sick, but something had to get done.(close edit)
 
Its News,.... no Entertainment,...no News,... nope Entertainment....

I have not yet seen F911, but the wife went to see it yesterday. She said the strongest points were about the Bush relationship with the Saudi/Bin Laden families, and then the story about the plane load of notable Saudis that was allowed to leave on 9/11 plus a couple of days.

So I asked her whether any of the people on that aircraft had been subsequently indicted, whether we had submitted extridiction requests, whether any of them had gone fugitive? No she said; the film never got into that much detail. The answer is probably NO, or the film and media would have made a big point of it. With propaganda you have to learn to read between the lines.

Then we have the Bush relationship with the Bin Ladin family. I asked her what in particular was improper about the relationship. Once again she drew a blank. It is not like the Bin Laden family is three people living a grass hut. It is a large extended family that has been conducting legitimate business for a long time. They have a few radical nuts; but, we are not at the point where anyone is suggesting that we round up all of the Bin Ladens and put them in front of a firing squad. So were the people with which the Bushes conducting business personally involved with terrorism? The film was a little unclear on that detail too.

Propaganda is nothing but canned emotion for willingly ignorant. We got to give Moore credit though; I don't recall anyone actually making propaganda for the purpose of making money on it as entertainment.

n2s
 
I met Hollowdweller at the MWKK04 in Dayton. He was a nice guy. Even though politically we may be opposites, I am sorry to see him go. :(
 
Is it possible that there is a newly revised method of comunication being developed to serve the Liberal agenda. There are several media approaches that are all being utilized to propagandize the world.

Movies-If you get on a bus for travel between cities in Peru or Chile you will be forced to watch North American style Sylvester Stallone splatter movies ad nauseum.It is no secret that Hollywood is so extreme left wing that it takes a Catholic conservative director to make a movie about Jesus to get around the liberal venom and left wing propaganda.

Music-Here again we've got the public being fed, among other things,"gangsta rap"the most venomous,vulgar,hatefilled,and destructive trash that the Liberal left can put out. In order to hear music one must go to classical or country to get away from their filth.

AM Talk radio-One place the Liberal Left cannot seem to maintain a firm foothold,other than PBS.This doesn't stop them because they are are attempting to restrict, ban, and eliminate conservative talk radio with legislative action.

Book Print media-long dominated by the left, this venue is gradually being entered by the conservative authors like William Buckly,Rush,Hannity,Coulter,et al.

Newspapers- dominated by the left wing in most major urban areas.

TV-We have one cable news channel "Fox News" in direct opposition to the liberal propaganda being spewed out by the likes of CNN,CBS,NBC,and ABC.

So here comes Michael Moore with his garbage which is not only accepted by the left but applauded and rewarded as a marvelous documentary.

Excuse me but if it walks like a duck,quacks like a duck,has feathers like a duck,smells like a duck,and looks like a duck, I will consider it a duck until proven otherwise.

Quote:
Convinced
"A man convinced against his will
Is of the same opinion, still."
Have you ever gotten in a discussion with someone, marshalled your arguments, been accurate, witty, overwhelmingly convincing... and have your "opponent" (if you will), continue to argue because he isn't interested in facts, he just wants to hold on to his opinion regardless of anything you, or anyone else has to say.
Of course, the other aspect of this is Galileo, for example, with his "eppour si mouve" or however that is appropriately spelled, when forced to recant the heliocentric view of the, well we'll call it, universe. He agreed with the authorities out loud, but inside, he knew that Copernicus had a few little problems.
But this is actually two sides of the same coin. Galileo's "Church Authorities" would not accept all the logic and fact and "convincing arguments" of Galileo, because it conflicted with their preconceived and prejudiced beliefs.

So, what do you do, in the waning hours of the discussion, when it becomes obvious that the "other side" simply dismisses any arguments you have because they aren't really interested in the truth of the matter. They just like to argue. Well, I guess that you just shake your head a bit, and walk away, knowing that invincible ignorance will defeat logic and reason every time. At least with some people.
by Jerry Wright

"...If you see two people in an argument, and you don't know whose side to take, then notice whether one of them refuses to concede even on small points where he's shown clearly to be wrong. There are words to describe this person such as fanatic and dogmatist."
-anon

"There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will."
[Albert Einstein, 1932]

"The energy produced by the atom is a very poor kind of thing. Anyone who expects a source of power from the transformation of these atoms is talking
moonshine" [Ernst Rutherford, 1933]

"We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out."
[Decca Recording Co. turning down the Beatles, 1962]
 
My local newspaper is very conservative. Much of the media is now owned by large corporations, and they are hardly liberal.

Moore is certainly liberal. He had a hard time getting his film distributed and shown....not a sign of liberal media.

I think of his movie as an editorial, rather than a documentary.

Too bad that Hollowdweller is gone. I liked to hear a variety of views on the site. Do banned folk ever get reborn?

I still think of politics as like an inkblot test of personality. Ten people look at something and see 10 different things. It is about as objective as economics.
 
I'm sorry that politics keeps rearing its ugly head here when there is a specific forum for it.
I'm a right-leaning type, and while I think a certain mindset is promoted by the mainstream media, I think it is easy enough to avoid it if you want to.
Moore had no trouble getting his film distributed. The Disney flap was blown out of proportion; he knew for a year that they didn't want to distribute it, and he found another distributor moments after he created his media controversy.
There are plenty of conservative books and authors out there- its the bookstores that lean to the left :) At least around here, you'd be hard-pressed to find a best-selling book by a conservative displayed openly at the bookstores, while Al Franken and Moore get front row for months.
I don't think there's a "conspiracy" on either side to dominate the media. What sells, sells. On AM radio, right wing talk sells. On primetime TV, they want to shock and titillate, so anything that shakes the status quo is shown.
I rarely watch TV anymore, except a few cable channels.
 
arty said:
My local newspaper is very conservative. Much of the media is now owned by large corporations, and they are hardly liberal.

Moore is certainly liberal. He had a hard time getting his film distributed and shown....not a sign of liberal media.

I think of his movie as an editorial, rather than a documentary.

Too bad that Hollowdweller is gone. I liked to hear a variety of views on the site. Do banned folk ever get reborn?

I still think of politics as like an inkblot test of personality. Ten people look at something and see 10 different things. It is about as objective as economics.
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Arty,

You are a lucky man if you have a very conservative local paper. The majority of newspapers aren't so and at least my own seems to have a problem confusing the news pages with the editorial pages. It is very easy to find an opposing one, USA Today or most of the nationials will take care of it for you.

Mr Moore had a had time getting this movie distributed. However that isn't unusual, many movies have a hard time getting distributed. he managed to find someone really quickly though when his movie was ready to go though. His biggest problem is that the Disney don't generally wanna p.o. their customers and stock holders. That's good business. I still thiink that this movie is just as politically motivated as that one on Waco that came out several years ago too. I don't think they ever got distruibution on that either, thats why they went directly to video.

One of the things that I like about this site is that we are blessed with a variety of opinions on every topic. However if we try to hijack the forumso that we see things the way we want to, we often get our hands smacked. One of my favorite stories ends "thus endeth the lesson".

To show my ignorance, I hadn't noticed that HD had gotten smacked. In the past it has happened and the gods of HI have relented.

Saturday on my way to work, I noticed their were two people on the sidewalk facing a pretty busy 4 lane rd. Holding up their fat boy signs and signs for that democrap "he whom I won't name", looked real nice, but I was proud of my locals, no one tried to run them over, honked horns, cursed them, spit or yelled, even when I went to Wendys and got a sandwhich and watched for awhile. Much unlike when some fellows protested at Wal-mart for their unfair labor practices. The worst then were UAW from the Ford Plant 1/4 mile away.

Go figure
 
I don't understand what happened here last night. Hollow has repeatedly attempted to build a groundswell movement to change HI from its policies- thats fact. I have called him on it each time and asked for clarification from Moderators to reinterate policy. Does anyone remember Dan saying- "Nope, same place munk" And Rusty saying the same?

A couple days ago I noticed Hollow had scooped several pages of liberal stuff onto the site. I read Rusty's comment- "What's good for the Gander' on one of them, saying , I believe, that he knew the other side deserved some outlet. Then I noticed one thread was moved or locked, locked, I think. Enough was enough- it was starting to look like one of the political forums. Several days go by, I'm busy, come back and see Hollow is once again complaining that politics don't belong here. I post my thread- Life Aint Fair- in hopes this will settle this once and for all. It seems to. Bill weighs in. Rusty weighs in.

Remember- the most important thing- friends, that we are friends I say.

Now Hollow is gone. I think he should come back, but I dont know what went on in my absence, and I'm just one tiny bump anyway.

Surely hollow can come back when an understanding is reached on this topic? Or was understanding offered and found impossible? Anyone fill me in?

I think Hollow is a nice guy who just happens to be a liberal- and so? I have no problem with that as long as he doesn't insist upon an affirmative action program here and as long as he doesn't call my posts right wing bullshit as he once did and try and shut me up.

Lord knows we've been through enough pain and changes- and poor health- and we don't want more. But here it is, so I say air it out lest it come back and bite us in the behind later.

Oh- for reasons of professionalism Rusty does not always explain himself nor should he have to. I am on record as of this instant, ( and all the ones preceeding) as backing him whatever he does. Why? Some of you ask. Because he has a heart of Gold, is very sharp, and does the best he can. If there's more possible in this life I don't know it.

Hollow could have relented, you know, relaxed some ego, and not have had this come. Seems he could have said, "OK I get your point" and not retaliated with a mass of liberal post and paste. On my thread supposedly airing this out he did not address his behavior but kept to political issues. That's not a good sign.

munk
 
Just for the general information. My comment about getting hands smacked is the "banned by Moderators" with HD's top post.
 
"Oh- for reasons of professionalism Rusty does not always explain himself nor should he have to. I am on record as of this instant, ( and all the ones preceeding) as backing him whatever he does. Why? Some of you ask. Because he has a heart of Gold, is very sharp, and does the best he can. If there's more possible in this life I don't know it."

You're right, Munk, dead right.
 
clearblue said:
Is it possible that there is a newly revised method of comunication being developed to serve the Liberal agenda.
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To paraphrase the well known saying: never attribute to malice that which can be more easily explained by ignorance or greed. In the examples of movies and popular music you cite, keep in mind that there are plenty of "liberals" (Tipper Gore, for example) that are calling for active federal censorship of such media. Sex and violence sell. The record labels and movie studios know this, and are riding it all the way to the bank.


AM Talk radio-One place the Liberal Left cannot seem to maintain a firm foothold,other than PBS.This doesn't stop them because they are are attempting to restrict, ban, and eliminate conservative talk radio with legislative action.
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This I haven't heard of. What's the legislation that's being discussed? That's pretty serious, and no doubt a violation of the 1st Amendment.


Book Print media-long dominated by the left, this venue is gradually being entered by the conservative authors like William Buckly,Rush,Hannity,Coulter,et al.
Click to expand...
Rand, Goldwater, Friedman and a variety of Republican and conservative Democrat congresscritters memoirs and polemics have been published throughout the 20th century. I walk into my local Barnes & Noble and there's invariably a display of "political" books: "My Life" next to "Treason," and so forth.


Newspapers- dominated by the left wing in most major urban areas.
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There was a comprehensive survey of print journalists done a few years ago... I can't remember the source... Zogby? Maybe? Anyway, the conclusion was that a solid majority of journalists were of a liberal bent. The part that doesn't make it into Rush Limbaugh's rant about this survey is that an overwhelming majority of newspaper editors are politically conservative in outlook. The writers write the stories, but the editors determine what gets printed.

Again, their "bias" is toward what sells: major urban centers tend to be more liberal than suburban and rural areas. The "letters to the editor" that they receive tend to be leftist in tilt. Their editorial policy however, tends to be more balanced. For every Washington Post, you find a Washington Times. The San Fransisco Chronicle contends with the San Fransisco Gate. Etc, etc, etc.


TV-We have one cable news channel "Fox News" in direct opposition to the liberal propaganda being spewed out by the likes of CNN,CBS,NBC,and ABC.
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CNN has a definite bias to the left. FOX News has a definite bias to the right. The broadcast networks have a definite bias to "the corporate." That is, local newscasts operate under the "if it bleeds, it leads" principle. National broadcasts don't say bad things about their owners. ABC reported on the AOL employee who stole millions of customers' personal information two days after the newspapers and the other TV networks (ABC being a subsidiary of AOL-Time-Warner, by way of Disney, Inc.). NBC held back information regarding a case of insider trading involving executives of a GE subsidiary.

As I keep trying to tell my Republican and Democrat friends: the left-right axis isn't the whole story. It's a cognitive filter that colors the way you view the world, but it's not the only way to view the world.


So here comes Michael Moore with his garbage which is not only accepted by the left but applauded and rewarded as a marvelous documentary.
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I must confess, I really enjoyed "Fahrenheit 9/11." It's propaganda, pure and simple. It plays with the audience's emotions like a kitten toys with a beetle. It is highly selective in what it shows and doesn't show. Nobody (including Michael Moore) really disputes this. It's not a documentary, but I don't think that invalidates it as an interesting piece of film.

At least, not anymore than an episode of HANNITY & colmes on the "Fair and Balanced" network invalidates the genre of political roundtable shows. (Sorry, couldn't resist...) :p

Ask a really left-wing Democrat or Green about media bias sometime. They're absolutely convinced that major media outlets have a severe right-wing slant.

I think the whole issue is overblown: there is no vast, shadowy [right / left]-wing conspiracy organized by the tripartite commission of [Murdoch, Limbaugh and Gingrich / Soros, Clinton (either one) and Jennings] with the sinister aim of undermining Americans [freedom, access to medical marijuana and a clean environment / freedom, access to firearms and the opportunity for entrepreneurship]. Those twisted, [rich / rich] and [powerful / powerful] monsters are not actually out to destroy everything good about [America / America]. :D
 
We are fortunate that we can still change the channels when we want. This lets us get the slant we want - at least some of the time.

There are places in this world where this option is not available.

One of the nice things about the internet is that you can get to lots of papers, other than the local news rag.

Personally, I'd like to see more diversity of reporting and news, not less.

Freedom of the press is one of the important freedoms that makes this country better than others. We complain alot, but you don't get lots of different views in places like Saudi Arabia.....

A friend of mine visited Tehran a few years ago. The religious police were searching cars looking for Michael Jackson tapes. Anything "Western" was taboo. Guess why so many Iranians came to the U.S. to live and work?
 
Gulf War vet, circa 1991. My buddy was a tanker, and was wounded in the leg when their tank hit a mine. He and crew were bleeding from ears, eyes, etc and were lucky to be alive. When he saw the movie, a certain image of a wounded soldier emerging from a tank was too real for him again, and he had a kind of flash back that made him physically ill and fumbling out of the theater, couldn't breathe, see, etc. He had the shakes. He could not finnish viewing the movie.

Is this entertainment?

Thot I'd intersperse some non-political content here.

Keith
 
FWIW, I saw that Hollow was back on the old Bush/Moore rant and just chose to respond by ignoring it. I had already told him my opinion of Moore in another thread, and wasn't going to be a part or having the list degenerate into an ongoing political argument, especially about someone I detest as much as Moore.

Rusty has analyzed his motives far more carefully (and probably more accurately) than I have, but I just figured he was a good knife guy who I disagreed with politically, and if he wanted to let off some liberal OT steam (that I happened to completely disagree with) then let him!

As I said, I hadn't analyzed his motives as Rusty had, and hadn't paid attention enough to know that what Rusty said had happened, i.e., that he originally objected to all political comment on the the list, and now was what, going too far in the other direction?

Look, now I'm confused. I am on record as backing whatever decision the moderator of ANY list makes. They have the ultimate responsibility and I'm not going to second guess them. If I disagree with their decisions then I have the freedom to leave the list. I did just that with another list where ANY mention of politics, even as if was in regard to legislation banning the guns we were taking about, was grounds for getting kicked off the list.

SO, forgive me for being obtuse, and I am NOT second guessing Rusty, but one question: is political discussion allowed on this list or not? It would seem to me that it has been allowed in the past, and HD was wrong in trying to disallow it originally, but if that is the case, then why is he gone for introducing a political topic now?

I will abide by any and all rules of this list (or exercise my option to leave), but I would just like the rules clarified.

Thanks very much!

Norm
 
Me too. Met him, seemed a fine guy. It is sometomes easy for us all to get torqued on one issue or another, and the impersonality of the web don't help things. We're all not professional writers, so our written words sometimes betray us.

Keith
 
Svashtar said:
SO, forgive me for being obtuse, and I am NOT second guessing Rusty, but one question: is political discussion allowed on this list or not? It would seem to me that it has been allowed in the past, and HD was wrong in trying to disallow it originally, but if that is the case, then why is he gone for introducing a political topic now?
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I think yes, political disscussion is allowed here. I reckon this story goes back to previous posts and such and not for just one message. I'm usually the last to know anything so, I'll just go back to eating my placebo benydryl.
 
Political discussion is allowed. Did you read Rusty's post about speaking from the heart? As far as I can tell, Hollow did not like the conservative bent to the forum and wanted political discussion DC'D. When that didn't happen, he increased the amount of liberal post and paste as retaliation. I believe this fits the facts.


There is more to this than we see, I suspect. Refer back to my previous post.


munk
 
I meant to copy the moved thread to the backend forum PLUS leave a copy on the HI forum. I screwed up and hit the wrong button, and once it is on the Backend forum even I can't go back and change things. Sorry.

The thing that got Hollowdweller booted was that he wanted to get politics off the HI forum. He was told that he wasn't going to get the forum changed. At that time he began dragging political stuff into the forum every chance he got.

It was as if he couldn't get his way so he would ruin the forum for everybody. Until we saw the light and gave in to his way.
 
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