Saw my first rough rider.

[jackknife]

Every Friday morning I have this breakfast meeting with some other retired friends in a little counrty diner in Middletown Maryland. One of our party has been off on a trip in the smokies and while there was at the Smoky Mountain Knifeworks. He picked up a Rough Rider large whittler with red bone jigged scales, and this morning at breakfast he passed it around the table.

When he first handed it to me I was very impressed. I spent a few moments looking it over before I opened any blades. The workmenship was very impressive for a 5.95 knife. The dyed bone was nice, and the jigging was well done. Fit of handle material to backspring and bolsters was very good. I was impressed.

Then I tried to open the knife.

I had to try a couple of times, and it was a near nail breaker. Not so much from the weight of the pull, as it was from the nail nicks being too shallow, and not placed well on the blade to take advantage of leverage. Nail nick on the main blade was not even halfway from the hinge end to the tip. Same with the other smaller blades. And to make me feel better, three others at the table of six had a very hard time trying to open the knife.

I don't know if this is typical for them, but based on my experiance this morning, I'd be very hesitant to order one from someplace. I have lots of traditional slip joints like stockmen, sodbusters, peanuts, and sak's, by firms like Case, Hen and Rooster, Kissing Krane, and Victorinox. I have never had a knife that I had to use a penny to pry open.

 

[brownshoe]

I've looked at a lot of rough riders and steel warriors at gun shows. I disagree with those who say the fit and finish are equal to case. I'd say equal to cammilus when its good. However, I've found many that would be rejected either because the spring was too tight or too loose. Sometimes they were not sharp and had a poor grind. Found a good one I almost bought, but not for the $15 the guy wanted for it. They do run as cheap as $5-10 at gun shows.

I think its the steel warrior that are marked 440. I've been told its 440C, but I think the chinese are smart enough to put a "C" on it if it was really 440C. I think they put 440 so they can use what they want, maybe 440C one time (or in initial release?) but then maybe 440A in another run.

 

[waynorth]

Don't kill an American's paycheck by buying that crap!!
My 2 cents!!!

 

[shecky]

I dunno... Seen some mediocre Case knives.

The RRs I've seen are really quite good. The Deerslayer and Sodbuster I still have. No problem opening, but the backsprings are pretty stout, to be sure.

Don't kill an American's paycheck by buying that crap!!

That's exactly the welfare mentality that'll kill US-based manufacturing in the end. Competition is the name of the game. The result is better product for lower prices.

 

[Ebbtide]

I bought the Elephant Toe.
It's a $10 knife. Ya get what ya pay for.
Servicable blade, decent F&F, ok steel, ok grinds.
Mine walked and talked fine for the small blade.
The large blade rubbed somthing fierce.
After a mineral oil soak and many, many openings, it's ok.

You could do better or worse.

I saw something about one handle material consistantly having a better knife under it than the other handle material.
As if they were made on 2 separate lines.
:shrug:

 

[waynorth]

There's nothing welfare about it!
I'm not advising anyone to buy bad knives from anyone! But given the choice, I'll spend my money in North America. The emerging world is buying up your country, with your bucks on the backs of their slave workers!
Head in the sand comes to mind!!

 

[JD Mandrell]

Never mind.

 

[jackknife]

Did'nt mean to start a debate over country of origins.

I was just making mention of the fact that I saw the first rough rider in person and was not that impressed. I really don't care where a knife is made, lord knows I have them from all over the world including South Africa, (Okapi) and other countrys. But I think form should follow function, not vise versa. First you make the thing workable. If the Chinese think pretty red dyed bone handles make up for poor design and function, then they will not get my money. I don't mind a cheap knife, but make the darn thing work, not to need a coin to pry it open.

Of my 14 Case knives, none are anything as hard to open as the knife I handled this morning. Not a nail breaker in the bunch. If first impressions are important, the Chinese did not make a good one on me.

 

[longbeachguy]

That's exactly the welfare mentality that'll kill US-based manufacturing in the end. Competition is the name of the game. The result is better product for lower prices.

I agree with that statement if you are talking about competition from the Germans or the Japanese. However, if we want to compete with the Chinese we'll have to do away with the 40 hour work week, the 8 hour day, paid sick and vacation leave, workers compensation, democratic government, civil liberties, etc. etc. etc. Although it's next to impossible to not buy Chinese goods, we should understand that when we do we are undermining the way of life that our fathers and grandfathers won for us, and that we owe it to our children to pass down to them.

 

[JD Mandrell]

Some of the first Rough Riders I handled were so-so, they seem to be improving the last year or so. I still notice that it seems to be the Brown Jigged Bone Rough Riders that are the better ones, but I have recently got 2 Jumbo Cattle King Stockman patterns one green and on red bone that are just about as good as a production slipjoint can get.

Another recent import that I bought is this Cowan Creek Stockman, that I will bet is made by the same parent company as Rough Riders and I would put it up against any new Case I own. Seriously, it is that well made. It's the only one I have, so I can't give a blanket endorsement to the whole name, but this one is a really well made slip'.

I kinda hate that your first impression was so negative jackknife if you get a chance give some more a look hopefully you'll see some better ones.

 

[mckgreg]

A poor man can't afford cheap shoes.
Greg

 

[waynorth]

There is an important fact hidden in all this controversy. The consumer holds almost ALL the power! The consumer decides who gets rich producing goods. The producers, and the sellers try to muddy the water, to put up smoke screens, in other words, to confuse the consumer! And they hire professionals to help them! They pay big bucks for advertising, bucks that we consumers give them, so they can confuse us!!
There is no mistaking the pleasure in handling, and using; even just holding and looking at, a Well Made Knife!
But most of the stuff we do (cut) can be handled by the cheapest box cutter.
When I hold a nice knife, I want to know someone earned a fair wage to make it. And can feed their kids! And can live in a decent house like I do!
I don't want to fatten some S.O.B. who starves his workers, and fires them when they are too sick to work. Or locks the door to prevent theft and burns them to death! That's not free enterprise, that's CRIME!
Most everyone here has way more knives than they need, and we are all truly blessed, for a huge portion of the world's population is lucky to own one! Why any of those knives have to represent abuse or repression or near slavery, I'll never know!
I'll use my power to continue the freedoms we enjoy, and to promote that freedom elsewhere, but I'll be very careful who I give it to!
Geez, we're just supposed to be having fun here!!

 

[JD Mandrell]

There is an important fact hidden in all this controversy. The consumer holds almost ALL the power! The consumer decides who gets rich producing goods. The producers, and the sellers try to muddy the water, to put up smoke screens, in other words, to confuse the consumer! And they hire professionals to help them! They pay big bucks for advertising, bucks that we consumers give them, so they can confuse us!!
There is no mistaking the pleasure in handling, and using; even just holding and looking at, a Well Made Knife!
But most of the stuff we do (cut) can be handled by the cheapest box cutter.
When I hold a nice knife, I want to know someone earned a fair wage to make it. And can feed their kids! And can live in a decent house like I do!
I don't want to fatten some S.O.B. who starves his workers, and fires them when they are too sick to work. Or locks the door to prevent theft and burns them to death! That's not free enterprise, that's CRIME!
Most everyone here has way more knives than they need, and we are all truly blessed, for a huge portion of the world's population is lucky to own one! Why any of those knives have to represent abuse or repression or near slavery, I'll never know!
I'll use my power to continue the freedoms we enjoy, and to promote that freedom elsewhere, but I'll be very careful who I give it to!
Geez, we're just supposed to be having fun here!!

Then burn your Personal Computer today. Everything you just said applies equally to it doesn't it?

 

[LarryM]

Then burn your Personal Computer today. Everything you just said applies equally to it doesn't it?

Maybe the point is being made that in areas where you have choice of suppliers. You should consider where the money from your purchase is going. Larry

 

[knowtracks]

There is an important fact hidden in all this controversy. The consumer holds almost ALL the power! The consumer decides who gets rich producing goods. The producers, and the sellers try to muddy the water, to put up smoke screens, in other words, to confuse the consumer! And they hire professionals to help them! They pay big bucks for advertising, bucks that we consumers give them, so they can confuse us!!
There is no mistaking the pleasure in handling, and using; even just holding and looking at, a Well Made Knife!
But most of the stuff we do (cut) can be handled by the cheapest box cutter.
When I hold a nice knife, I want to know someone earned a fair wage to make it. And can feed their kids! And can live in a decent house like I do!
I don't want to fatten some S.O.B. who starves his workers, and fires them when they are too sick to work. Or locks the door to prevent theft and burns them to death! That's not free enterprise, that's CRIME!
Most everyone here has way more knives than they need, and we are all truly blessed, for a huge portion of the world's population is lucky to own one! Why any of those knives have to represent abuse or repression or near slavery, I'll never know!
I'll use my power to continue the freedoms we enjoy, and to promote that freedom elsewhere, but I'll be very careful who I give it to!
Geez, we're just supposed to be having fun here!!

Well said Waynorth!!

 

[waynorth]

But TLC, I wouldn't be able to talk to you!
This communication is important to me, and the ability to use the internet is important to the oppressed peoples of the world so they can find out how free(er) humans can live. I think about where my money goes on every transaction I make. Supporting cheaper computers is good for the world in many ways. When everyone can own one, they can find out that they don't have to put up with dictators and corruption, and all the other exploitation that occurs.
The ability to communicate across the world will eventually level the playing field for all.
Think of all the ignorance we've avoided just by having this conversation!!
Besides, the guy who is assembling my next computer, is making a living three blocks from me, paying taxes so there's no garbage on our streets. But he doesn't live in a 5000 square foot house, just an ordinary place like mine. He's using imported components because local producers have been driven out of business; A mixed blessing, because it puts computers within the reach of many people.
My direct answer to your question is, everything I said does NOT apply equally to computers and to knives, IMHO!
I think it is the philosophy of some southwest Original People (Hopi?) that one should live in beauty and harmony. I agree! A carefully designed and crafted knife does that for me, in a small way. It represents an intention to produce a useable/enjoyable tool. Those mass imported knives represent an intention to churn a profit out of barely passable goods.
Thanks for listening to this everyone. Disagree, but don't ignore, and I will give you the same courtesy!

 

[Rocinante]

Ah, the OLD argument ensues.



Truth is, what we do or say will make no difference. The genie is out of the bottle and it won't go back in.

I have a Rough Rider and it seems almost as good as a Case (better in some areas and not as good in some).

It's an excellent knife, though, make no mistake about it.

 

[shecky]

Supporting cheaper computers is good for the world in many ways.

Especially when that computer factory starves his workers, and fires them when they are too sick to work, locks the door to prevent theft and burns them to death! Just like you said.

How is it the Chinese computer sector could be so benevolent and promote freedom all over the world, yet the Chinese cutlery factory is pure EVIL? EVIL, I tells ya!

That's a hell of a way to rationalize your support of that evil empire known as China.

However, if we want to compete with the Chinese we'll have to do away with the 40 hour work week, the 8 hour day, paid sick and vacation leave, workers compensation, democratic government, civil liberties, etc. etc. etc. Although it's next to impossible to not buy Chinese goods, we should understand that when we do we are undermining the way of life that our fathers and grandfathers won for us, and that we owe it to our children to pass down to them.

This same argument could be made when a company moves to another state. Isn't it unfair for workers when a company moves where labor or state regulations are less expensive?

By buying Chinese goods, how do we undermine the way of life that our fathers and grandfathers won for us? Isn't capitalism the way of life of our forebears? Or do you speak of knifemaking, an industry that deserves as much protection as broom making - none?

 

[waynorth]

Actually, to make computers, you have to have decent conditions, and reasonable well educated workers. Which of course furthers the cause.
Anyway, I go back to one of my earliest statements, that the consumer holds the power!! The problem is the consumers, meaning us, generally don't know how to use that power effectively as a group. Imagine what would happen if we all refused to buy any knives unless they were a) correctly priced without abuse, and B) of excellent quality! My crystal ball tells me, that's all we'd see on the shelves- good knives! To buy crap, is to encourage crap!
BTW, I'm glad you are not ignoring this, shecky, whatever your stance! Ignoring (ignorance) is bliss, for some!

 

[JD Mandrell]

To buy crap, is to encourage crap!

So then when we find chinese knives that we think are not crap are you encouraging us to buy them?

And under a free market, isn't what meets each individuals standars up to them alone?