Saws

Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Messages
201
Recently there was a thread on hatchets and large knives for survival. I think the most over looked tool for wilderness travel is a folding saw. I have about 4 types of folding saws and they out perform any chopping tool I have for making a shelter or firewood. The folding Sierra Saw I bought at Cabela's cost $13 and 2 extra blades cost about $5.50/ea. The saw weighs 5.5 oz. and the replacement blades weigh 1 oz. each. For the weight and efficiency, I think a saw is a must.

What do you guys think?
 
I agree. Chopping is labor intensive and that uses up energy. Not a bad thing under normal circumstances and conditions, but under survival conditions when energy replacement might be a few days away, energy conservation and using a saw is the way to go. I carry a small Buck sheath saw that I bought years ago. It's a little heavier than some folders and takes up a little more room, but it still does what I ask of it without complaining, so I hang onto it.
 
The only saw I've had experience with in the wilderness was Trailblazer's Take-Down Buck Saw. See this link: http://www.trailblazerproducts.com/Takedownsaw/takedownsaw.asp. The search on Google (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=take+down+buck+saw) will show you a few different pictures. The one I used was bought at Canadian Tire for $25-$30 CAN.

I fell in love with this saw in about 30 seconds. I think it was the 24" model I used. Yes, it weighs from 15 - 18 oz, but it's more then worth the extra weight. That's still much less then an axe, and it does much more work in much less time. Getting up early to cut firewood for 15 people, when the only wood you have around is 10" thick and 30' long, turned from a nightmare task (think: axe) into a chore that was downright enjoyable in comparison.

There's a good review on the saw itself here: http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/saw.html

I strongly concur that a saw is an indispensable tool in any wilderness/survival situation- or at least for a camping trip when you want to get things done quickly with the least amount of effort!
 
I have a Sandvik / Bahco Laplander. It cuts like a chainsaw!
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I like the pocket chain saw from campmor. I've cut though thick logs faster wich otherwise take a long time with a folding saw or ax.


Joe
 
backpacker :

I have about 4 types of folding saws and they out perform any chopping tool I have for making a shelter or firewood.

A decent long blade can cut through shelter sized wood in one cut, a saw can't be faster than that. In limbing the difference is even greater because the blade will sweep multiple limbs off in one pass.

In making a fire the blade or hatchet is much more efficient at making scrapings for tinder, gathering bark and grasses as well as fuzz-sticks, and kindling in general, and splitting thick wood.

Saws are very nice though for cutting very thick wood, and will then readily out cut even full size axes. Yesterday I saw a small bow saw (swede saw blade), only a foot long with the traditional full duty frame, very packable.

-Cliff
 
Originally posted by Steven Andrews
I have a Sandvik / Bahco Laplander. It cuts like a chainsaw!
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Yeah, I have one of those, too, got it from JM. It's great!
 
Different tools are better/best for for different tasks. A saw + medium knife + SAK or multi-tool is a good compromise with a wide range of functionality. If I'm not trying to really minimize weight, I add a 16.4 oz khukuri.

If you KNOW you're going out do a lot of brush work, a golok, machete, or longish knife would be nice -- long edges for drawing cuts.
 
I think a saw is a great thing in the woods. I also use a Sandvik Laplander. Excellent tool, fits nicely in the backpack . Cuts dry pine a lot faster than my knife would.
My father use a bow saw when in the woods. I think it`s taking up to much space in the pack, but it is better in use than the Laplander.
 
Saws are very much underrated. Saws are generally much lighter, safer and more efficient than hatchets, although somewhat less versatile.


BTW, dose anyone know how much the Laplander saw weighs?


How many teeth are there per inch (or cm)?


What type of steel is used for the blade?


Are the teeth impulse hardened?


Thanks.




- Frank
 
Frank, I have the Laplander and it weighs only 6 oz.

Cliff please re-read my post. I said making firewood, not kindling or fuzzy stick. I always have a Puukko on hand for those chores. Also, a saw will cut firewood much faster. Most people do not burn green wood, most firewood is pretty dry to start and a knife will not cut hard dry wood very well. With a saw you can use 10" diameter hard dry wood for a long burning fire, which is a big advantage. As for splitting wood, I prefer a 7 1/2" Leukku for that chore. It will split 5" rounds easily.

The saw, knife and Leukku weigh less than a big knife and are more versatile than a single tool. I don't know why I would carry a single tool.
 
Saws are mighty handy, especially for the tasks *some* people use a BIG blade for. It will, indeed, cut faster and safer; but it's not "cool", so it doesn't impress the Rambo crowd.

Backpacker, don't spend overmuch time trying to get Cliff to read your post as it was intended to be read. He always has a particular "slant" to things when he reads a post. You'll never convince him that a saw is a better tool in some intances than a big knife. And it's his typical "one tool, big survival knife" mentality that won't allow him to see your post as it was intended.

Again, Cliff, use the right tool for the proper job, bot a big honkin' sharpened prybar for everything because it's "cool". It's a lot better to carry a folding saw, medium sized sheath knife and SAK/multi-tool and use each tool in its intended role than to struggle trying to make a big blade (ANY big blade) do what it wasn't intended to do. As has been pointed out, those 3 tools not only weigh *less* than the big chopper, and perform better with more versatility and safety, the lighter weight can be spread around the body. So instead of a single piece of 1/4" steel drooping your pants on one hip, you can carry a better tool load spread out for more comfort. Also, should ONE tool be lost, who would be in better shape? The guy who carries only 1 tool or the man who carries 3?
 
I've been packing one of the large-size Wyoming saws for about a year or so now, and I'm tickled with it. Packs down to just about nothin' (even with the extra blade that comes with it) and so far it's cut through dozens of 4 to 8 inch diameter logs like they were grandma's biscuits and gravy. Anybody else use one of these?
 
I like the looks of the Sandvik / Bahco Laplander. Anyone done a comparison between it and the Opinel saw?
 
backpacker :

I said making firewood, not kindling or fuzzy stick.

Part of gathering fire wood is making the fire, it takes quite awhile to build a fire to the stage it can handle 10" wood, even if well seasoned. This is also a rather extreme case of fire building, even 2-4" diameter wood will last several hours unless it is clear pine which is horrible wood to burn as it gives no heat and is consumed at a rapid pace.

As well unless the weather in the area has been very fine for quite some time, even dead wood is far from dry, and if all the wood is very dry, fire building is trivial in any case. Try making the fire after heavy rains and see how useful a piece of wood over a couple of inches becomes, not to mention the shear weight of just moving it.

You also specifically mentioned shelter building, and for many of the associated tasks a long blade is many times more efficient than a saw (shelter should also encompass clothing and assorted tools). If you had limited your statement to "A saw is more efficient at bucking thick wood than a axe or long blade ..." then there would be little disagreement, as this is why saws replaced axes for loggers. There is however a lot more to wood work than just bucking thick wood.

For general outdoor working it is unnecessary to cut through 10" wood for building a shelter or making a fire, and it is dangerous and extremely wasteful of energy considering the effort it takes to fell, move and buck that size of wood even if you are working on a dead and windblown tree especially if it is in any way humid or sees even infrequent rain.

... a knife will not cut hard dry wood very well.

A poor knife won't, but a crappy saw won't either. Yes if you take an excellent saw and compare it to a heavy tactical thick ground knife the saw looks wonderful for almost any wood working, this has nothing to do with blade vs saw, try a long blade with a profile similar to the Valiant Goloks.

The saw, knife and Leukku weigh less than a big knife and are more versatile than a single tool. I don't know why I would carry a single tool.

A long blade still has advantages in gathering light vegetation over all three of the above, how significant this is depends on the enviroment, it can be critical in some, of no consequence in others. It also can work better for various wood shaping activities such as work as a drawknife. But yes in general you are more prepared the more gear you carry, I typically take a small folding saw, small fixed blade (3-4") and long blade (~14" similar in nature to a Valiant Golok).

The long blade handles any brush work and felling assisted with undercuts from the saw if necessary which is rare (ring knots). The saw does any bucking on difficult to cut wood (really knotty) and the blade splitting assisted with a mallet. Felling and bucking and splitting are rarely necessary though as you can usually find enough firewood just by using the dead trees, and clearing some of the dead branches which can be done easily with a walking stick. The small blade handles any light cutting which is just too awkward for the long blade.

One shorter but still of decent length blade can handle all of those tasks (though none as well) you give up machete type use to get some mobility for precision cutting, this is the common 10" bowie pattern. The main advantage would be in simplicity, having to care and maintain just one tool, and it is generally more robust, plus you could probably afford a better quality one, having only to buy the one tool[*]. But you always have to make such gear compromises. For example if you packed two saws you would be more prepared than just one. One dedicated to hard woods and the other soft, very different teeth patterns and even steel composition.

In the winter I would tend to carry a small axe rather than a long blade because then there is no use of being able to cut light vegetation as all of it is hidden under feet of snow, and the wood is much harder and stiffer and the axe then is more functional for felling and works better cutting holes in ice. The long blade can also be switched from a long slender golok or Kobra type pattern to a heavier Ang Khola khukuri pattern to achieve much the same goals.

[*]In general this isn't true though as you can buy top quality folding saws and small knives very cheap, a quality longer blade, even of the same quality will be more expensive than those combined, though you can get solid blades that are not terribly more expensive, the HI khukuris, and the Becker and Swamp Rat knives.

-Cliff
 
Quote: Part of gathering fire wood is making the fire, it takes quite awhile to build a fire to the stage it can handle 10" wood, even if well seasoned.

In this case Cliff how is a large knife going to help you start a fire. I can break wood and use a small knife to start a fire. That can get large enough easily to add larger logs if required.

Quote: This is also a rather extreme case of fire building, even 2-4" diameter wood will last several hours unless it is clear pine which is horrible wood to burn as it gives no heat and is consumed at a rapid pace. As well unless the weather in the area has been very fine for quite some time, even dead wood is far from dry, and if all the wood is very dry, fire building is trivial in any case. Try making the fire after heavy rains and see how useful a piece of wood over a couple of inches becomes, not to mention the shear weight of just moving it.

Most likely you will not need a fire that lasts more than several hours, but in an extreme survival situation (under safe conditions) you may want a fire to last long enough so you can sleep through the night without having to get up every hour to put a small log on. Sleep is important in a survival situation as well as energy conservation. Cutting 8” to 10” logs to a 3’ to 4’ length is much easier with a saw than a large knife. I am not trying to say I am stronger than you cliff, but moving several 3’ to 4’ logs would not be very hard. More than likely I would pick a shelter location that would be close to good firewood or would be below the firewood so I would not have to exert much energy bringing it uphill or long distances.

Quote: You also specifically mentioned shelter building, and for many of the associated tasks a long blade is many times more efficient than a saw (shelter should also encompass clothing and assorted tools). If you had limited your statement to "A saw is more efficient at bucking thick wood than a axe or long blade ..." then there would be little disagreement, as this is why saws replaced axes for loggers. There is however a lot more to wood work than just bucking thick wood. For general outdoor working it is unnecessary to cut through 10" wood for building a shelter or making a fire, and it is dangerous and extremely wasteful of energy considering the effort it takes to fell, move and buck that size of wood even if you are working on a dead and windblown tree especially if it is in any way humid or sees even infrequent rain.

No one mentioned building a shelter out of 10” diameter wood. For that matter Cliff, I would probably look for a natural shelter first prior to building a shelter. If I had to build a shelter a Leukku and saw could build one fast enough not to expend very much energy. As far as a lot more too wood work than bucking wood, I agree. This is where a small knife runs circles around a large knife. 95% of all knife work in the wilderness is more efficiently performed with a small knife. Making traps, ect.. is much efficient with a small knife.

Quote: A poor knife won't, but a crappy saw won't either. Yes if you take an excellent saw and compare it to a heavy tactical thick ground knife the saw looks wonderful for almost any wood working, this has nothing to do with blade vs saw, try a long blade with a profile similar to the Valiant Goloks.

You would really have to look hard for a crappy saw. Most $17 to $30 saws will cut very well. Most large knives that are not expensive do not cut well. Here we get into the weight issue again. The goloks weigh much more than most tools. Why carry the weight of a golok & small knife. Also, carrying a 10” bowie or golok in most of the lower 48 would upset a lot of politically correct people. It is very easy to carry a folding saw, small knife and 7” blade in a butt pack or small day pack. How often are you going to have your big chopper strapped to your pack or hanging off your leg on a day hike? Most people do not intend to get into survival situation and usually have a small pack or butt pack with them on day hikes when most of these situations arise.

As far as the rest, I disagree with some and agree with other parts. One thing I need to mention is the Becker, Busse and Swamprat line are very thick behind the edge which does not allow a large knife to perform like it should. Also, maitaining and edge on a large knife is much more work.


Geoff
 
Has anyone tried one of those survival wire saws? How did it do? Where did you get it?
 
Quite Bear, The wire saws do not cut that well and do not hold up very well. But, if you are looking for something in a mini kit for limited use there "OK". I would rather have an SAK with a saw.
 
95% of all knife work in the wilderness is more efficiently performed with a small knife. Making traps, ect.. is much efficient with a small knife.

Everybody should take this quote to heart. At least those in northern climates. Almost all of my outdoor cutting is easily done with a blade less than 4 inches long. Anything larger tends to become more of a hindrance than a help.

Back on topic, SAWS ROCK!!! If I had my choice between carrying a large fixed blade, a kukri, an axe or a saw, the saw would be my pick. Fortunately, saws are light enough that I never really have to choose.
 
I agree with you 100% Buzzbait, that's why I was asking about the wire saw. I like to go as light and as primitive as possible. The occasional cutting of a large limb for a ridgepole or fireboard can be a lot of work using a knife, not to mention the potential for dulling and even damaging the edge. An edge that you will also use for notching traps, fireboards, carving tools, cleaning game, etc...
 
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