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Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
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Saws
- Thread starter backpacker
- Start date
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
backpacker :
It will cut dry grasses and sweep dried branches from trees (which also tend to contain lichen and dried moss) far more effectively than the saw, and as well much more so than a small knife. The large knife is also much more effective at creating scrapings from dried wood becuase it can be used two handed as a draw knife. It will also much more efficiently split small kindling than a leuko which has little inherent splitting ability and must be batoned.
And so you would use some green wood, which will last through the night. Which will not only be several times easier to cut than a 10" seasoned log, it is also *many* times easier to split, and as well simply to move. It also is much more versatile in uses being a much better source of bark, sap and as a material for creating tools and weapons out of, so what you don't burn you can readily find other uses for.
Well I just recently moved 15 truck loads of wood many of which were 12"+, so I am well aware of what it takes to move them, since I do so every year. In reality, a 12" tree weighs about 850 lbs, so yeah, if you find moving that easy you are a lot stronger than me (and everyone else on the planet). Now since you are cutting it into lengths and it is well seasoned (say 0.50% which isn't realistic except in really dry climates), you are still looking at ~150 lbs per section. This while no longer tremendously difficult, isn't trivial to lift mainly because it is a very awkward shape. If it is smaller in diameter it is many times easier to shoulder, as well if the sections are longer they are easier to lift as it is easier to get under the center of mass, which is why you rarely cut anything under eight feet as the loss in raw weight is overcompensated by the sheer awkward nature of the short log, so you put up with more weight to allow it to be shouldered.
You specifically argued for a saw over a large blade for building a shelter, and later clarified that the wood had to be large for the saw to see benefit. Thus the above follows logically from your arguement. Ref :
Yes, I already noted that it was a solid combination, this was noted in the other thread as well. It was also noted that for many types of shelters a long blade is several times more efficient.
That would depend on what you are doing. Consider the following :
-grasses and light vegetation for food, shelter, misc. utilization (ropes, baskets), clothing (insulative padding as well as directly such as snow shoes) and bedding
-boughs for shelter, both for reinforcement of a frame or the common bough cave or snow shelter (use stakes for depth setting),
-food, cutting bone for utilization as well as food (bone and marrow broth), as well as stakes and boughs for the fire, as well as even possible digging in ice or dirt for a pit (dirt digging is rather extreme however)
-in general use as a hammer for shaping metals, bone, or rocks, as well as just use as a stake driver
-use in cutting snow blocks, or digging through ice, for both cases the saw and short blade are many times less efficient
Can you get along with a small knife, sure, you can get along without any knife as well and just use your teeth and stone tools. However in many cases a longer knife if of benefit. You do make a valid point about legality however, in some cases if can get a "weapon" printing that isn't nearly as likely as with a saw.
Many traps see benefit from larger knives, for example deadfall traps with and without spike lays, any trap which needs anchors (of which there are many) see benefit from a large knife being able to quickly sweep down saplings for stakes. A solid long knife (unless completely optomized for machete type work) will easily enable precision work via a choked up grip for a more netural balance. The index finger choil on the Camp Tramp or Battle Rat for example.
Try any department store, I have used several which are very poor saws due to the tooth pattern, or lack or set or blade taper. Note as well that saws can be very wood specific, a saw that works in dry wood is very different than one that works in sappy wet wood. Specifically, for fresh pine I would not want anything above 4.5 tpi as it would clog too readily, this saw would be very inefficient on seasoned spruce however as it would be very difficult to pull through the wood, here you would want 8 tpi or better.
Yes, there are a lot of large knives not made for wood working and thus would not be good choices, you can make this arguement about any tool if you pick unsuitable ones. You only need to find one that does and all the rest are of no consequence. The Martindale Jungle knife for example works very well NIB with no edge modifications and is really cheap.
And yet are more than willing to move and cut up 100+ lbs logs. The amount of energy expended carrying a 1 lbs knife in a sheath around all day is insignificant (<10 calories). The effort in moving those logs is greater many times over and is many times more likely to cause a strain or other type of injury. As an example, two years ago I was carrying a large log and on the way back towards the wood pile I stepped on a rock that was covered in some moss, the rock put a high pressure point on my foot and under the weight of the log cracked one of the bones in my foot, it took quite awhile before I could walk on it. This is why even though I can carry such logs all day long, and do so every year, I would not do so in any kind of survial situation unless it was absolutely necessary because they make even the simplest tasks very dangerous, a simply slip can quite frankly cause death or serious injury which can't happen if you are moving much smaller wood.
Even cutting large wood is also many times over more dangerous. Not only does the weight come into its own as a factor and completely change how you must fell wood, but larger trees can also have "wideomakers" which can simply not found on smaller trees. These branches are one of the more common causes of lumber related deaths and are very difficult o avoid without tree topping ot similar activities.
The Becker Patrol Machete runs about 0.018-0.022" behind the edge in the forward section, quite frankly this is so low that it is difficult to find even light hunting knives that are thinner. The CU7 and Combat Bowie are also very thin, ~0.035", the Swamp Rat Camp Tramp is significantly thicker (~0.055") but also of similar acute edge angle (16-18) so does cut very well (see the reviews for less vague statements).
For reference this is the same angle that Spyderco and Buck put on their best cutting folders. The Howling Rat and other smaller Swamp Rat's are thinner behind the edge than the large knives, no surprise, at ~0.035" . The Ergo Busses are thick behind the edge if you measure them at the high convex part of the assymettric grind, which is a completely baised perspective, measured on the flat part they are ~0.035" .
Than a saw ?! Which again is the comparision you made in the beginning. Compared to sharpening a small knife, a leuko and a saw, a long knife is many times easier to sharpen. It is also vastly easier to maintain than a leuko by itself because of the horribly inefficient way in which a leuko is ground (no primary grind) which leaves an edge ten times as wide (and thick) as the bevel on something like a Camp Tramp which means there is that much more metal to remove when honing.
-Cliff
It will cut dry grasses and sweep dried branches from trees (which also tend to contain lichen and dried moss) far more effectively than the saw, and as well much more so than a small knife. The large knife is also much more effective at creating scrapings from dried wood becuase it can be used two handed as a draw knife. It will also much more efficiently split small kindling than a leuko which has little inherent splitting ability and must be batoned.
And so you would use some green wood, which will last through the night. Which will not only be several times easier to cut than a 10" seasoned log, it is also *many* times easier to split, and as well simply to move. It also is much more versatile in uses being a much better source of bark, sap and as a material for creating tools and weapons out of, so what you don't burn you can readily find other uses for.
Well I just recently moved 15 truck loads of wood many of which were 12"+, so I am well aware of what it takes to move them, since I do so every year. In reality, a 12" tree weighs about 850 lbs, so yeah, if you find moving that easy you are a lot stronger than me (and everyone else on the planet). Now since you are cutting it into lengths and it is well seasoned (say 0.50% which isn't realistic except in really dry climates), you are still looking at ~150 lbs per section. This while no longer tremendously difficult, isn't trivial to lift mainly because it is a very awkward shape. If it is smaller in diameter it is many times easier to shoulder, as well if the sections are longer they are easier to lift as it is easier to get under the center of mass, which is why you rarely cut anything under eight feet as the loss in raw weight is overcompensated by the sheer awkward nature of the short log, so you put up with more weight to allow it to be shouldered.
You specifically argued for a saw over a large blade for building a shelter, and later clarified that the wood had to be large for the saw to see benefit. Thus the above follows logically from your arguement. Ref :
Yes, I already noted that it was a solid combination, this was noted in the other thread as well. It was also noted that for many types of shelters a long blade is several times more efficient.
That would depend on what you are doing. Consider the following :
-grasses and light vegetation for food, shelter, misc. utilization (ropes, baskets), clothing (insulative padding as well as directly such as snow shoes) and bedding
-boughs for shelter, both for reinforcement of a frame or the common bough cave or snow shelter (use stakes for depth setting),
-food, cutting bone for utilization as well as food (bone and marrow broth), as well as stakes and boughs for the fire, as well as even possible digging in ice or dirt for a pit (dirt digging is rather extreme however)
-in general use as a hammer for shaping metals, bone, or rocks, as well as just use as a stake driver
-use in cutting snow blocks, or digging through ice, for both cases the saw and short blade are many times less efficient
Can you get along with a small knife, sure, you can get along without any knife as well and just use your teeth and stone tools. However in many cases a longer knife if of benefit. You do make a valid point about legality however, in some cases if can get a "weapon" printing that isn't nearly as likely as with a saw.
Many traps see benefit from larger knives, for example deadfall traps with and without spike lays, any trap which needs anchors (of which there are many) see benefit from a large knife being able to quickly sweep down saplings for stakes. A solid long knife (unless completely optomized for machete type work) will easily enable precision work via a choked up grip for a more netural balance. The index finger choil on the Camp Tramp or Battle Rat for example.
Try any department store, I have used several which are very poor saws due to the tooth pattern, or lack or set or blade taper. Note as well that saws can be very wood specific, a saw that works in dry wood is very different than one that works in sappy wet wood. Specifically, for fresh pine I would not want anything above 4.5 tpi as it would clog too readily, this saw would be very inefficient on seasoned spruce however as it would be very difficult to pull through the wood, here you would want 8 tpi or better.
Yes, there are a lot of large knives not made for wood working and thus would not be good choices, you can make this arguement about any tool if you pick unsuitable ones. You only need to find one that does and all the rest are of no consequence. The Martindale Jungle knife for example works very well NIB with no edge modifications and is really cheap.
And yet are more than willing to move and cut up 100+ lbs logs. The amount of energy expended carrying a 1 lbs knife in a sheath around all day is insignificant (<10 calories). The effort in moving those logs is greater many times over and is many times more likely to cause a strain or other type of injury. As an example, two years ago I was carrying a large log and on the way back towards the wood pile I stepped on a rock that was covered in some moss, the rock put a high pressure point on my foot and under the weight of the log cracked one of the bones in my foot, it took quite awhile before I could walk on it. This is why even though I can carry such logs all day long, and do so every year, I would not do so in any kind of survial situation unless it was absolutely necessary because they make even the simplest tasks very dangerous, a simply slip can quite frankly cause death or serious injury which can't happen if you are moving much smaller wood.
Even cutting large wood is also many times over more dangerous. Not only does the weight come into its own as a factor and completely change how you must fell wood, but larger trees can also have "wideomakers" which can simply not found on smaller trees. These branches are one of the more common causes of lumber related deaths and are very difficult o avoid without tree topping ot similar activities.
The Becker Patrol Machete runs about 0.018-0.022" behind the edge in the forward section, quite frankly this is so low that it is difficult to find even light hunting knives that are thinner. The CU7 and Combat Bowie are also very thin, ~0.035", the Swamp Rat Camp Tramp is significantly thicker (~0.055") but also of similar acute edge angle (16-18) so does cut very well (see the reviews for less vague statements).
For reference this is the same angle that Spyderco and Buck put on their best cutting folders. The Howling Rat and other smaller Swamp Rat's are thinner behind the edge than the large knives, no surprise, at ~0.035" . The Ergo Busses are thick behind the edge if you measure them at the high convex part of the assymettric grind, which is a completely baised perspective, measured on the flat part they are ~0.035" .
Than a saw ?! Which again is the comparision you made in the beginning. Compared to sharpening a small knife, a leuko and a saw, a long knife is many times easier to sharpen. It is also vastly easier to maintain than a leuko by itself because of the horribly inefficient way in which a leuko is ground (no primary grind) which leaves an edge ten times as wide (and thick) as the bevel on something like a Camp Tramp which means there is that much more metal to remove when honing.
-Cliff
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,207
Cliff, I was following your argument (I think) up to the point about the thickness of a leuku "behind the edge."
Because I always thought of my "Marttiini" leuku as pretty thin, I mic'd it:
Just at the point where the final bevel starts, it is .056"
1/4" back from the ultimate edge, it is .058"
1/2" back . . . .075"
3/4" back . . . .095"
1" back . . . .120"
at the spine (1 7/16" from ultimate edge) it is .135"
I never would have selected this knife as a primary choice for splitting wood, but I never thought of it as having a "fat" edge.
Are you and Backpacker discussing a different "leuku"?
Because I always thought of my "Marttiini" leuku as pretty thin, I mic'd it:
Just at the point where the final bevel starts, it is .056"
1/4" back from the ultimate edge, it is .058"
1/2" back . . . .075"
3/4" back . . . .095"
1" back . . . .120"
at the spine (1 7/16" from ultimate edge) it is .135"
I never would have selected this knife as a primary choice for splitting wood, but I never thought of it as having a "fat" edge.
Are you and Backpacker discussing a different "leuku"?
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
With Puukkos and similar ground knives since there is no secondary bevel the edge thickness is the stock thickness of the knife. However the edge angle is acute, ~10 degrees or so, and thus they cut well in general. The point I was making there was that while it is true that the *larger* Swamp Rat blades are indeed fairly thick behind the edge, this doesn't lead to an inference that they can not cut well because it ignores the edge angle. The same logic applied to the puukko styled knives would have them not cut well also.
Consider as well that flat ground knives maintain a much lower edge thickness for much longer than a leuko. Specifically the rate of increase in thickness is the angle ratio, so because of the flat grind on the Camp Tramp and other such knives is about a third of the angle of the Puukkos, they will thus gain in thickness at 1/3 the rate. They also have a benefits in ease of sharpening and much greater durablity and lateral strength at the same level of cutting ability.
These effect of these differences however may or not be overly significant. For example I use a Mora 2000 a lot as an EDC both at home and out around. While the Howling Rat is a lot more durable and easier to sharpen, the extra durability isn't needed for a lot of cutting and sharpening is quick unless the edge on the Mora is damaged, so I carry the knife and my brother is currently using the Howing Rat as he is a bit rougher (construction). However if I was taking a knife that could be used by friends, or going to be relied on in an emergency or high stress situation, the Howling Rat would be picked over the Mora without hesitation.
On saws, do I carry them, yes, all the time, I currently have a about a dozen of various types, mainly I use them in felling and bucking the winters wood, from a full size bow saw for bucking the sticks, to small folding saws for pruning small trees in poorly rooted style. They have their place and can be very nice to have when the task calls for them, just like a suitable long blade or nice axe.
-Cliff
Consider as well that flat ground knives maintain a much lower edge thickness for much longer than a leuko. Specifically the rate of increase in thickness is the angle ratio, so because of the flat grind on the Camp Tramp and other such knives is about a third of the angle of the Puukkos, they will thus gain in thickness at 1/3 the rate. They also have a benefits in ease of sharpening and much greater durablity and lateral strength at the same level of cutting ability.
These effect of these differences however may or not be overly significant. For example I use a Mora 2000 a lot as an EDC both at home and out around. While the Howling Rat is a lot more durable and easier to sharpen, the extra durability isn't needed for a lot of cutting and sharpening is quick unless the edge on the Mora is damaged, so I carry the knife and my brother is currently using the Howing Rat as he is a bit rougher (construction). However if I was taking a knife that could be used by friends, or going to be relied on in an emergency or high stress situation, the Howling Rat would be picked over the Mora without hesitation.
On saws, do I carry them, yes, all the time, I currently have a about a dozen of various types, mainly I use them in felling and bucking the winters wood, from a full size bow saw for bucking the sticks, to small folding saws for pruning small trees in poorly rooted style. They have their place and can be very nice to have when the task calls for them, just like a suitable long blade or nice axe.
-Cliff
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,207
Cliff, this Marttiini "Lapenleuku" is flat ground. At least, except for the last mm, there is a continuous taper from spine to edge. I thought that was the characteristic style of such beasts, as opposed the the saber grind of the four Puukos (or is it four Puuko? [lion lions]) that I own. Perhaps I am suffering from a misconception rooted in limited sampling and The Practical Book of Knives, which comments on two peoples performing the same tasks with such different knives.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Most Leukos I have seen have the single sabre flat grind, as with all knives there are bound to be variations. I don't think a flat ground Leuko (or puukko) is going to be one in the traditional sense. For a truely high performance Leuko, take one with the single flat grind and get someone to apply a hollow relif to both faces (japanese style) leaving the edge as thick as necessary for the tasks (0.005-0.010" for cutting, 0.025+ for chopping splitting). I have been using something similar from Pinoy knife and it is significantly improved over the traditional single grind in regards to cutting ability and especially sharpening.
-Cliff
-Cliff
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,207
Wastes too much.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,207
Wastes too many?