Scandi or No Scandi????

[jll346]

I am going to have a knife made but I can not decide on blade type. The model I like is displayed with a scandi blade which looks awesome but I have never used or more importantly maintained before. I am looking for any pro's or con's with a scandi. Or, do I just have it made with a standard blade. The blade will be made with D2. Thanks............

 

[VCM3]

Sounds Like Charles May.If so,the Scandi,is what I'd recommend,all the way.One of the most sharpest,serious fixed blades to come down the pike.Sharpenig-lay the bevel of the grind,flat on the stone,there's your angle.
This grind is simply put,"un-real",and you'd have to get one to be able to understand.And if it is Charles May,man,can he do this grind!AndThat is my opininion.

 

[kel_aa]

I like Scandi grinds that go all the way up to the spine.

 

[VCM3]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/VCM3/cmbhs.jpg
Check that one out!

 

[sodak]

If it's D2 with a Scandi grind, it will take *forever* to sharpen unless you put a microbevel on it.

 

[Halfneck]

Been looking at Charles May's knives for a while. They look great for the money.

 

[jll346]

Yes it is a Charles May knife/knives I am looking at. Thanks for the info.

 

[v-man]

Have one of his and one on the way. Great knife from a Great person.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I am looking for any pro's or con's with a scandi.

The positive is that it is a cheap and fast way to make a knife, the negative is pretty much every other aspect of performance. It has a low ease of sharpening due to the very wide bevel forcing heavy metal removal, low edge to blade durability ratio because the primary and edge grind are the same, low strength to weight ratio, and it binds heavily on the flats and thus wedges strongly. The same grind is on very cheap stamped stock blades in general, very low sabre grinds, usually light hollow.

If it's D2 with a Scandi grind, it will take *forever* to sharpen unless you put a microbevel on it.

Which then turns it into a very shallow sabre grind. Plus D2 isn't a steel which responds well to really low angles typical of such knives, 9-11 degrees. It also isn't a steel which works well for that type of work in general (wood craft) it has the complete opposite set of material properties.

-Cliff

 

[Joe Talmadge]

I am going to have a knife made but I can not decide on blade type. The model I like is displayed with a scandi blade which looks awesome but I have never used or more importantly maintained before. I am looking for any pro's or con's with a scandi. Or, do I just have it made with a standard blade. The blade will be made with D2. Thanks............

You know, there are lots and lots of folks who love Scandi grinds. The majority of UK-style bushcrafters, who are hardcore knife users, prefer Scandi grinds. Obviously, getting a Scandi grind won't be a disaster. If you don't own a Scandi grind knife, I don't see any reason you shouldn't get this one in Scandi, especially since some of the other members say Charles May's scandi grinds are good.

That said, generally I lean more towards Cliff's response. It's true the single bevel makes holding the angle easier, but you have to grind away a lot of metal. I also feel that a lot of the Scandi's performance reputation rests on the fact that the initial angle is so small. Get a full flat or convex grind with the proper geometry (and steel that can support it), and you'll get the same performance, often with less binding and better performance characteristics for non-bushcraft things. And like sodak and Cliff, not sure I love D2 for this application.

All of that said, again I don't think you'd be making a mistake by getting a scandi grind from a maker who is good at it. Nice way to get introduced to the grind.

 

[jll346]

Thanks all for the info.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It's true the single bevel makes holding the angle easier ...

You don't need the full bevel to achive that though and there are many ways to judge bevels freehand.

I also feel that a lot of the Scandi's performance reputation rests on the fact that the initial angle is so small.

That and the blade stock is also usually very thin, 1/16" or under on a lot of the knives. If you want to see what the grind is capable of then a Mora 2000 is a decent place to start as it also has a bit of a distal taper and flat grind towards the tip so you can see the effect those have as well and is a solid all around knife with a very nice stainless steel for that type of work. Comparing it to a Deerhunter or Temperance is valuable as both of those knives have similar edge angles as the Mora 2000.

-Cliff

 

[Andy_L]

I thought most scandi knives are quite thick my hand forged one starts at 4mm thick and most UK bushcrafter knives are about this thickness. It is (I think) slightly easier to control for some wood work but for everything else it can be bettered by a convex grind. If I only hand one knife it wouldn't be a scandi, but I have lots so have a few scandi knives.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It depends strongly on the steel. The Mora's commonly use Sandvik steels and these are generally sold in very thin strips. In contrast most of the modern cutlery steels like ATS-34 tend to be used in much thicker stock.

-Cliff

 

[TLM]

I thought most scandi knives are quite thick my hand forged one starts at 4mm thick and most UK bushcrafter knives are about this thickness.

The UK bushcrafter is usually a different knife from a typical "scandi", they tend to be thicker full tang knives that are quite rare in scandis. They are no worse for it but intended for slightly different usage. A typical scandi WAS an everyday knife with high woodwork orientation. A bushcrafter is intended for heavier use in general outdoor,

TLM

 

[sodak]

I forgot to mention that my testing with D2 has shown that it chips out badly when woodworking with lots of torque at (or around) scandi primary edge angles (thanks Cliff). A good flat grind with a microbevel has proven (to me) to be much more durable. If you have the option with this knife being made for you, I would go with a high (or full) flat grind, given that the steel is D2.

Having said that, do whatever turns you on! If you want to go scandi, try a cheap blade from www.ragweedforge.com first, see if it's what you want. I use them all the time around the house, but only for price considerations.

 

[laurens]

I think a scandi in d2 would suck too. I think us buchcrafters choose a scandi grind because
· Ray mears uses a scandi grind(although he does apply a micro secondary bevel),he is a idol for many bushcrafters
· There are lots of Scandinavian knives available which use natural materials(fits in with the bushcraft ethos) and are fairly cheap, the handles are usually comfortable in a variety of grips(important for carving and when the knife needs to be used for extended periods)
· The scandi grind is easy to maintain in the field with just a stone and can be sharpened by those who aren’t very good at sharpening.
· The grind is very good for precision carving, it can also remove large amounts of wood quickly.
· Most people recommend the scandi grind, and a frosts mora is the first knife most
bushcrafters buy to learn with, so it is the grind most bushcrafters are used too.

· There are few knives suitable for bushcrafters, with a convex grind the f1 is too obtuse for wood carving and the northstars handle has had some bad press.
there may be a few things i forgot too.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...D2 has shown that it chips out badly when woodworking with lots of torque at (or around) scandi primary edge angles ...

It would be interesting to correlate grain/carbide size with minimal angle to prevent tearout. Then issues like RWL34 vs 154CM, how much does powder metallurgy effect the results?

Ray mears uses a scandi grind(although he does apply a micro secondary bevel) ...

I have watched him in his TV series many times and his knives don't actually look significantly used. I wonder if he changing them often. With the longer blades they are often very new as they still have the stickers on them. If you do apply a secondary bevel to that short a primary grind it will thicken rapidly as there is little relief. I have used some that were so sharpened and now you end up with basically a very shallow sabre ground blade with a thick edge.

There are lots of Scandinavian knives available which use natural materials(fits in with the bushcraft ethos) and are fairly cheap, the handles are usually comfortable in a variety of grips(important for carving and when the knife needs to be used for extended periods)...

At the low price end they are very difficult to beat because they start off at $5 and are really as good as they get outside of aesthetics. They have the right steels, solid overall design and only really lack high end sheaths. It is similar to comparing a heavy machete to a decent golok or parang. For $5 you get the machete but if you are going custom then you have someone make a parang.

The scandi grind is easy to maintain in the field with just a stone and can be sharpened by those who aren’t very good at sharpening.

While the wider grind does give better feedback, it isn't that difficult to freehand sharpen in general and you can make jigs and v-rods trivially, much easier than many typical wood working activities. I think most people just vastly overcomplicate it and/or don't really know what they are trying to achive so they end up never having the edges meet or never removing the burr.

One of the main reasons people can sharpen those types of knives easily is that they use steels like 1095 and 12C27mod which are easy to grind, fine grained and in general very suitable for the work so it doesn't have problems in use like Sodak noted for D2. It is also inherently easier to obtain a higher cutting ability at a lower angle and for many people this is what they mean by sharpness which confuses the issue further.

The grind is very good for precision carving, it can also remove large amounts of wood quickly.

This really isn't the grind specifically as much as the fact that the edge is acute and the stock thin. Compare a Mora to an Opinel or a Spyderco Temperance or Deerhunter. I have used some of the thicker scandinavian blades and they actually cut very poorly compared to full flat ground blades with similar edge angles as it is just a matter of cross section. It is also easy to reduce the angle on a Temperance to a lower one if you are working on softer woods. In comparison try to lower the edge on a Mora or add a relief to the edge to prevent it from wedging.

-Cliff

 

[laurens]

.
Firstly I was just trying to outline the reasons why the scandi grind is so popular with bushcrafters in the uk. The scandi grind is not my preference anymore. I have a mora which I have given a convexed edge and removed the shoulder of the bevel,its kind of semi convex/scandi ,this is my grind preference

”This really isn't the grind specifically as much as the fact that the edge is acute and the stock thin. Compare a Mora to an Opinel or a Spyderco Temperance or Deerhunter. I have used some of the thicker Scandinavian blades and they actually cut very poorly compared to full flat ground blades with similar edge angles as it is just a matter of cross section. It is also easy to reduce the angle on a Temperance to a lower one if you are working on softer woods. In comparison try to lower the edge on a Mora or add a relief to the edge to prevent it from wedging. “

I’ll bow to your experience on this one.I must admit my opinel can remove wood very very fast.The standard argument I hear for the scandi grind is that the shoulder of the secondry bevel causes wedging when working with wood.



"]“I have watched him in his TV series many times and his knives don't actually look significantly used. I wonder if he changing them often. With the longer blades they are often very new as they still have the stickers on them. If you do apply a secondary bevel to that short a primary grind it will thicken rapidly as there is little relief. I have used some that were so sharpened and now you end up with basically a very shallow sabre ground blade with a thick edge.”

I did say micro secondary bevel here the quote from his book
“to complete the process I run the blade very lightly down the finest ceramic sharpening rod to give the edge more bite” it seems he only does this once at least that the impression the book gives.


While the wider grind does give better feedback, it isn't that difficult to freehand sharpen in general and you can make jigs and v-rods trivially, much easier than many typical wood working activities. I think most people just vastly overcomplicate it and/or don't really know what they are trying to achieve so they end up never having the edges meet or never removing the burr.

Maybe,many people struggle to hold the angle on a scandi grind so sharpening a secondary bevel would be probably beyond them. I didn’t find it too hard myself,but matching a micro bevel that less than millimeter or so really requires concentration. I find it easier to just strop the edge with compound loaded on leather you can maintain the edge for some time like this

 

[sodak]

Laurens,

You raised some good points. I have found, when I take a flat ground thin blade and reduce the primary grind waaaay down on a steel like 52100, then it is trivial to sharpen, simply because there is so little metal to remove, and it cuts very well even when not too sharp, simply because it is very efficient. I do think that a whole bunch of people like moras due to ease of finding the sharpening angle easily, and this would appeal to a whole bunch of non-knife knuts that I know. If this encourages people to use and think better of knives in general, than I'm all for it. Your stropping technique is a good one.

The moras are very good in many cutting areas, binding issues aside. The price makes them especially attractive. When I'm rough with a blade, it's often a mora. I feel that I've found designs that are better than moras, but that doesn't make the mora design bad by any means. It's still one that I use a lot.