Scandi or No Scandi????

[Cliff Stamp]

.The standard argument I hear for the scandi grind is that the shoulder of the secondry bevel causes wedging when working with wood.

Many people focus on the shoulder but this isn't the actual problem. The knife will binds around the flats, machetes are the same way. This is why hardwood axes have primary hollows and are not left flat above the edge. Japanese also run hollow grinds on wood working chisels and most knives for the same reasons.

“to complete the process I run the blade very lightly down the finest ceramic sharpening rod to give the edge more bite” it seems he only does this once at least that the impression the book gives.

Ok, I had a different impression. If he is getting more bite that way though it is because he isn't sharpening properly at the full angle and not actually forming the edge but just doing a coarse shaping. This is one of the problems of sharpening such a wide bevel.

...matching a micro bevel that less than millimeter or so really requires concentration.

You need to sharpen at your own natural angle and not some preset one. I would find it very difficult to try to hold 17 degrees for example as I never sharpen anything at that angle. If you are having problems you can hold the knife fixed and just use the stone as a file. This allows you to directly see the edge as it is abraded. Hold the knife in your left hand with the edge pointing to the left and just work the stone along it with the edge outlined with a marker. You will immediately see the color being removed and adjust accordingly.

The thing which most people don't realize is that you don't actually need any precision until the edges meet. You can shape the edge as sloppy as you want. Just take a coarse stone and shape the bevel until it meets at an apex and can catch on your fingernail. Once this happens then elevate the knife on the stone and give it a few light passes to set the very edge with a tiny microbevel about 0.1 mm wide. Because the micro-bevel is so tiny you can make quite a jump in stone grits. You also don't need a lot of precision because of the effect of the relief grind.

Using this general method you can easily get knives sharp enough for any brush work, moving to the ultra sharp shaving above the skin takes a little more skill and is worth the time to practice, but it isn't something I would demand from a beginner. It would be like demanding someone start off fire making by using friction methods in a sleet storm. This isn't a goal you would try to have right from the start but just something you work up to gradually as you master the basics.

-Cliff

 

[laurens]

Ok, I had a different impression. If he is getting more bite that way though it is because he isn't sharpening properly at the full angle and not actually forming the edge but just doing a coarse shaping. This is one of the problems of sharpening such a wide bevel.

I think ray must know how to sharpen a knife he’s been teaching for years, the previous sharpening step before this was to strop to the knife, perhaps the final pass of the crock sticks was to remove any burr that remained (although he does not mention that the knife is stropped to remove the burr, just that stropping helps the knife to become sharp and durable). Personally I think this was a printing error and was meant to say something along the lines of the secondary bevel adds strength.


You need to sharpen at your own natural angle and not some preset one. I would find it very difficult to try to hold 17 degrees for example as I never sharpen anything at that angle. If you are having problems you can hold the knife fixed and just use the stone as a file. This allows you to directly see the edge as it is abraded. Hold the knife in your left hand with the edge pointing to the left and just work the stone along it with the edge outlined with a marker. You will immediately see the color being removed and adjust accordingly.

The thing which most people don't realize is that you don't actually need any precision until the edges meet. You can shape the edge as sloppy as you want. Just take a coarse stone and shape the bevel until it meets at an apex and can catch on your fingernail. Once this happens then elevate the knife on the stone and give it a few light passes to set the very edge with a tiny microbevel about 0.1 mm wide. Because the micro-bevel is so tiny you can make quite a jump in stone grits. You also don't need a lot of precision because of the effect of the relief grind.

Using this general method you can easily get knives sharp enough for any brush work, moving to the ultra sharp shaving above the skin takes a little more skill and is worth the time to practice, but it isn't something I would demand from a beginner. It would be like demanding someone start off fire making by using friction methods in a sleet storm. This isn't a goal you would try to have right from the start but just something you work up to gradually as you master the basics.

Thanks for the advice cliff, with the exception of the marker that’s pretty much exactly what I was doing .I sharpened a pocket knife(British army clasp knife) up to 8000 grit although the resulting edge felt more like 4000/6000 ,still that’s sharp enough. However there’s no consistency, I only managed to get hair scraping sharp on other knives(mora) I think I needed to spend some more time with the 1000 grit slip stone. One problem is there aren’t really any cheap knives with flat grinds that fit the bill as a bushcraft knife. The only one I can think of is the frosts pro grip butchers which is a little long. looks like a fillet knife to me http://www.attacc.com/acatalog/FROSTS_OF_MORA.html
The knife is at the bottom of the page

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Personally I think this was a printing error and was meant to say something along the lines of the secondary bevel adds strength.

Yes, however if you are doing this there is little need to take the primary edge to a very fine finish, including stropping it since you are erasing all of that with the micro-bevel anyway.

However there’s no consistency, I only managed to get hair scraping sharp on other knives(mora) I think I needed to spend some more time with the 1000 grit slip stone.

That is usually one of the major problems, the edge isn't completely formed with the coarse stone. It can be very sharp there, even a 90 grit finish can shave and push cut newsprint for example.

One problem is there aren’t really any cheap knives with flat grinds that fit the bill as a bushcraft knife.

In the price range of the base Mora's no. Of course it depends on what exactly you mean by bushcraft. Most general utility kitchen knives work well for a lot of wood work once ground to the correct angle. I mean the old style carbon ones, not the new hollow ground stainless ones. You can pick these up cheap on ebay and similar second hand stores.

-Cliff