Schatt & Morgan 420HC a deal breaker ?

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whetrock

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Nov 13, 2010
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I'm currently interested in the Schatt & Morgan Keystone series, in particular the 3 blade congress, I was curious if, the 420HC, was disappointing or acceptable to you individuals in this price range. Meh, I'm okay with it, and am probably going to wind up with the 33431, in sambar stag, but am not going to be enthused with the steel. A Buck, is understandable, but I don't know if I need to be in traditional folders, if I'm this particular about steel
 
You know I've thought about that. According to the Queen website, their 420HC is run at 58HRC. That's as hard as Opinel runs their 12C27MOD stainless and is the same hardness as Buck 420HC. I'm happy enough with the performance of those alloys at that hardness, so I likely be happy enough with the Schatt and Morgan. (Buck 420HC outperforms Case Tru-Sharp.)

As far as price, those times I've seen a Buck with fancy covers come out, the price has been way above that of what I could get a Schatt and Morgan for.

I don't have any Schatt and Morgans in 420HC, but I likely will in the not too distant future. There's a couple floating up towards the top of my want list.
 
Meh, it won't break me to get it, some say Queen QC is spotty, but really the Queen City knives, I've handled looked superb, and the Schatt's I've seen in the flesh looked top notch too, still I'm not a fanboy or anything, but Queen has my attention. The only Schatt I've handled that was not top notch, but lackluster in F&F was a 5 blade model of some sort. I have several GEC knives (Even I have seen a couple that were lacking in finish, and their lockbacks are wobbly with much play) which everyone touts as top of the line in traditional production cutlery, still Queen has improved IMHO. Buck, and Case get away with 420HC, so at 58 it's serviceable. I'm interested in maybe, gasp collecting a little from various companies, and carrying them, unlike many collectors. I'm not expecting impeccable finish in a production folder, but I have a couple of Gene Wisemans on the way, and am hoping to get into custom slipjoints.
 
The S&M 420HC is a very useable steel
It holds a very good edge for a decent amount of time
Hones to very fine edge

Similar to Buck, but as the blade grind is so different it is hard to tell which is bewtter
Feels much better than the Case Tru Steel
 
It is for me. I refuse to pay a premium for a Schatt & Morgan in 420HC when I can get a less costly Queen with much better D2 blades. It's a head scratcher really, unless Queen has admitted to themselves that the S&M line is designed for and marketed primarily to collectors. If that's the case the choice of 420HC makes much more sense as 420HC has superior corrosion resistance as well as takes a higher level of polish. I still don't want anything to do with it though. I'm no collector. I want my blade steel chosen for its superior using qualities, not because it's pretty.

- Christian
 
I admit, it kinda irks me a bit that S&Ms come in 420HC, if only because the price/quality of the knives doesn't quite jive. Not that there's anything wrong with 420HC, but for the price, I'd expect 440C, a higher alloy Sanvik, or the like. I've become far less of a steel snob since my tastes have gravitated towards traditionals, but that doesn't mean I don't want a steel that's in-line with the price.
 
Planterz said:
I admit, it kinda irks me a bit that S&Ms come in 420HC, if only because the price/quality of the knives doesn't quite jive. Not that there's anything wrong with 420HC, but for the price, I'd expect 440C, a higher alloy Sanvik, or the like. I've become far less of a steel snob since my tastes have gravitated towards traditionals, but that doesn't mean I don't want a steel that's in-line with the price.
Click to expand...
:thumbup: you hit it!
 
Planterz said:
I admit, it kinda irks me a bit that S&Ms come in 420HC, if only because the price/quality of the knives doesn't quite jive. Not that there's anything wrong with 420HC, but for the price, I'd expect 440C, a higher alloy Sanvik, or the like. I've become far less of a steel snob since my tastes have gravitated towards traditionals, but that doesn't mean I don't want a steel that's in-line with the price.
Click to expand...

I dunno. I got a two blade 420HC Schatt in my sights at $75. That isn't much more than the price of a lot of two-bladed Case knives. Case runs their 420HC a lot softer than 58 yet has their praises sung all the time.
 
I've said NO again and again to nice-looking S&M knives with 420 stainless. :thumbdn:

If they were priced comparably to Case ($40-50) I could ignore the mediocre steel.
 
Bob W said:
I've said NO again and again to nice-looking S&M knives with 420 stainless. :thumbdn:

If they were priced comparably to Case ($40-50) I could ignore the mediocre steel.
Click to expand...



mediocre steel??
LOL

Not exactly
420HC has been used for a long time and the S&M results are good
 
I know that Queen has used quite a few different steels in their S&M line... and the good thing (imo) is that they have offered us those choices. I guess one has to measure ones needs and find the best fit to fill those needs. Years ago when I actually carried a pocket knife, now only having a knife attached to my keychain, my choice was a knife that could hold a decent edge, but be very maintenance free. Stainless was, and still is, my steel of preference. Though I collect knives now, including carbon steel blade knives, carbon steel would be a deal breaker for me if I wanted to again consider a knife for pocket carry. Not that carbon is bad steel, we all know it is a proven material, but would still not meet my wants/needs. So, back to the 420hc... we all know that the heat treating and such can make or break whether or not the most is achieved with any grade of steel. 420hc seems to be getting pretty good results when done by firms like Buck and Queen... even Case' seems to be doing okay, though maybe not to the same level (supposedly a lesser hardness heat treatment). So, if it fits your needs, go for it, sir.... But, if it does not.. maybe another steel, even if it means another pattern or maker, is needed. Good luck in your decision :)
 
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neeman said:
mediocre steel??
LOL

Not exactly
420HC has been used for a long time and the S&M results are good
Click to expand...

I didn't say it was bad. But compared to the available steels today, 420hc is average at best. And it's below average compared to what other manufacturers offer at that price range.

I stand by "mediocre."
 
I've been quite satisfied with the performance of the steel in R.R.s but I WONT pay $100 for it.
 
I really like my stainless Schatt & Morgan's, though my knives don't get hard use, so they've stayed just as sharp as any of my others. I can actually sharpen it too, which is a big plus for me since I'm still learning.
 
I have/had a number of the Keystone knives. They're pretty to look at and some interesting patterns are available. That said, I think they can be expensive for what you get and the F&F on mine are nothing to write home about: gaps, blade-play and in the end the steel is alright but certainly nothing more. I too much prefer the Queen D2 knives, cheaper,better finished and an unquestiionably credible user steel.
 
I have a S&M Moose in 420. It's not a bad steel, it seems to hold an edge better than my case copperhead in 420. But S&M is supposed to be Queens premium brand. I think that S&M should deliver D2 or a higher end stainless.

My opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.....
 
Does anyone actually KNOW (no guessing!) how much a change to ATS-34 from 420HC would add to the price of a two-blade knife? The only evidence I can find is that during the years when the keystone and F&W series were made at the same time, they were typically about $20-25 apart in price. The F&W knives also had larger patterns and heavier, nicer handle scales as well, so how much of the upcharge was from the steel? I would gladly pay the extra $20 for the better steel.
 
I certainly don't mind their 420HC steel; it is quite serviceable. Takes and holds a very good edge.

Side note: In 2000, they used ATS-34 for their Keystone series. (At least, according to the info that they released at the time...)
 
I was going to pick up a Schatt and Morgan camp knife from Ryan Daniels at the Chesapeake knife show, but he decided not to go due to weather, and I, thinking rationally instead of in knife mode, decided to err on the side of caution. Glad I did, because it got pretty nasty out there. So, when I see him at the next knife show in the area in April, I will buy one from him. I am more worried about fit and finish, and heat treatment. I believe that 420 should be used on an economy line, and feel that at least the main blade on their camp knife should be 1095 or D2. The SM line had both 420, 1095 and ATS34 before, so, maybe we'll see other steels offered.
 
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