Schatt & Morgan 420HC a deal breaker ?

IME, good 420HC is like good Sandvik 12C28 and both are fairly comparable to good 1095 in that they sharpen easily and take a very fine edge. If the knife is going to be used for whittling or wood working I would think that's a good stainless option. I don't fully understand the issue with balking at the high prices if the price is buying you the fit/finish one is looking for. People pay that for 1095 and I can't imagine that 1095 is any much different than 420HC or 12C28 in terms of production costs. The big issue is heat treatment, I would think. Totally agree with others that Case's 420HC leaves a lot to be desired, but again, that's a heat treat issue.

As I understand it, 440C and D2 are both large carbide steels. Harder to sharpen and perhaps happier with a toothier final edge. Great for rope and meat and such. But I wouldn't see them as being better. Different and better for different uses, yes. But not carte blanch better. Just a different category (large carbide vs small carbide).
 
I'm coming to believe that 420HC is one of the easiest steels to get along with, bar none. It sharpens up to extremely fine edges with simple tools and methods. I bolded that point, because it means it's easy to find a way to sharpen it up, wherever one happens to be, with whatever tools or materials are available. Sometimes other steels like D2 or ATS-34 won't be so accommodating, in that regard. When combined with thoughtfully-chosen blade grinds and good edge geometry (as in thin & high hollow grinds), it can make a fantastic slicer that's easy to get sharp and maintain it in such condition. Almost worry-free, and that's worth quite a lot in selecting a knife that'll be comfortable to use & maintain in good cutting shape.

Many will tend to frown upon it, as a 'lowly' stainless for cheap knives. But seeing how successful it has been in the product lines of Buck and Case, for decades, I'm beginning to think I understand why. I think they both understand that it ain't broke, so there's no need to 'fix it'.

I wouldn't reject a knife based solely on the 420HC steel choice. If it's heat treat is good (and I'd suspect Queen's/S&M's is, commensurate with their overall attention to detail and quality), and if the knife is otherwise well-fit and finished, I wouldn't have any issues with it.


David
 
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Most people want a shiny knife blade, be it user or collector. That's why D2 and 1095 won't make the grade for many people irrespective of the price. For a using blade, D2 can get ugly and dull looking, 1095 needs cleaning before pocketing...not very user friendly. With stainless, you can clean you knife when you next pull it out and find it dirty. With 1095/D2 you could have some serious pitting or even edge problems.

I had a D2 Queen toothpick and the 420HC S&M toothpick, I gave away the D2 and kept the S&M. The D2 did hold an edge longer, but the 420HC S&M was prettier, better made, had nice swedges, better bone, and just a wee bit thicker and sturdier. All around better knife and worth the extra money.

The one knife most of you probably use the most is a kitchen knife...do you even know the steel it's made of? the hardness? is it better than 420hc at 58R?

Don't buy the S&M because of the steel and you will miss out on some good knives.
 
black mamba said:
Does anyone actually KNOW (no guessing!) how much a change to ATS-34 from 420HC would add to the price of a two-blade knife? The only evidence I can find is that during the years when the keystone and F&W series were made at the same time, they were typically about $20-25 apart in price. The F&W knives also had larger patterns and heavier, nicer handle scales as well, so how much of the upcharge was from the steel? I would gladly pay the extra $20 for the better steel.
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Do makers even use ATS34 anymore? I thought anyone who still used it switched to 154cm awhile back since it's supposedly better in every way (Cleaner, cheaper, domestically made).
 
As recently as I remember looking at them, the File & Wire Schatt's were made with ATS-34. If they would rather use 154CM, or even CPM-154, that would be fine by me, but they have no track record of doing so.
 
fzla226 said:
Do makers even use ATS34 anymore? I thought anyone who still used it switched to 154cm awhile back since it's supposedly better in every way (Cleaner, cheaper, domestically made).
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All of my Schatt & Morgan knives are the File and Wire models with ATS-34. I recall reading some time ago that ATS-34 was no longer being made, or being phased out. Not sure if or how soon the File-Wire series will have to switch to something different. I would imagine Queen has a bit stockpiled, and those knives are relatively low production. They could could continue ATS-34 for years perhaps.
 
ATS-34 seems kind of 1990's to me. Not a bad steel, but CPM, and regular 154CM, is more available, and accessible. Still 420 is okay, but Case, with a stag handle isn't too far off in price really, and Tru-Sharp is good bit lower in hardness. Really surprised, and impressed by the responses. I wasn't expecting to get this much feedback. The Keystones, are nice, but useable, still I don't want to see S&M turn into Case, offering cool, and interesting handle materials and patterns in lackluster steel. I'll post pics when I get it. I'm going to pull the trigger.
 
Bob W said:
All of my Schatt & Morgan knives are the File and Wire models with ATS-34. I recall reading some time ago that ATS-34 was no longer being made, or being phased out. Not sure if or how soon the File-Wire series will have to switch to something different. I would imagine Queen has a bit stockpiled, and those knives are relatively low production. They could could continue ATS-34 for years perhaps.
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I seem to recall reading somewhere that File and Wire series would be available in D2, but I'm not sure if the switch is to be an alternative option or a replacement for ATS34.
 
bonky said:
I seem to recall reading somewhere that File and Wire series would be available in D2, but I'm not sure if the switch is to be an alternative option or a replacement for ATS34.
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Hmmm... it would be nice if they did S&M with some D2... keeps things interesting. I would surely have to add such a creature (or two) to my collection. What's cool is that Queen currently offers D2 as a steel for their standard series... That seems to be against the grain... with D2 being considered a better end, material wise. All in all, I have a soft spot for Queen made knives. I like GEC and Case very much... but Queen... with their old school in name, in history, and in production methods... is currently holding strong as my favorite. Wild how I have such nice specimens from quite a few different makers... but something about Queen and Schatt & Morgan, it just grabs me :)
 
The steel is cool : hey what, D2 or ATS34, what could be wrong ? I loved the Kentucky Shiner Quart, what a fantastic little knife. I was stoked about its big brother to come. As soon as available, I ordered one. Imagine, such goodness in 4" ? Eventually, the goodness is lost. The Pint is a very handsome and elegant knife but it has no guts : the very narrow pivot point makes it one of the weakest knives I ever had. The Quart is still one of my favorites EDC, I can't get tired of this perfect littlle folder.
 
Lots of good points here. My using experience is that on an inexpensive EDC pocket knife, sometime ease of quick resharpening is preferred to a blade that takes longer to sharpen but holds an edge better. I have knives of both kinds.... and like them for different things.
 
Sadly, its a deal breaker for me. If Im going to pay that much for a slipjoint I need a minimum of 440C or 1090. I bought one not knowing the steel and immediately returned it. Darn shame.
 
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