School Me on Choppers

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Jun 16, 2017
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I have recently come to the conclusion that there are 2 main types of choppers, at least now, in this students mind.
Basically a vegetable chopper and a wood/ brush chooper. Seeking after a grail woods chopper for awhile I have not quite narrowed my vision down to what exactly I am after.
Fairly hefty and with a blade length of 9-11 inches is the easy part, but blade geometry has me stuck.
Are large flat ground blades able to chop through a 4" tree for weeks, say making a long term survival shelter, or not? Rather have a Busse, Ka-Bar, or ESSE Junglas etc?
What about using it to stick pigs? I have seen flat ground wood choopers, and kitchen choppers seem to be up to a lot of tasks.
What would you want for a do all outdoor knife (with a bushcraft for smaller tasks)?
 
I'd rather use an axe or saw for a 3 inch or larger tree; they're a LOT less work.
I only use my knife for cutting/slicing things, cleaning game and fish, and whittling, which is what a knife is for.
If you insist on chopping/splitting with a knife, please consider a froe. They are made for that kind of work.
 
I've thought about this too and here are my two cents.

These questions are all about compromises. What trade-offs are you willing to make? A knife that has the size and geometry to be great at chopping is a trade off against the qualities that make for good cutting / fine use / pig sticking. If you want something that will chop fire wood, clear a trail, stick a pig and whittle wood, it be barely adequate at all those tasks. So you have to decide which qualities you prioritise, which will then compromise the others.

In a long-term chopping / batoning scenario a thick stock will stop the blade breaking in half, and a geometry that leaves it very thick behind the edge (e.g. convex or sabre) will stop it losing large chunks out of the edge. But neither will necessarily stop micro chipping or rolling. That's the job of steel type and heat treat (including hardness). If you have good stock thickness and geometry but not a good steel and heat treat, the blade will look pretty good after long term chopping (no macro damage) but will get progressively blunter and take a lot more work to bring the edge back to good (lots of micro damage).

That's why I tend to go for Busse, Swamp Rat or Scrap Yard - they tend to have the thickness and geometry for chopping, but also arguably the best heat treat in the game and some of the best steel for resisting micro edge damage. I don't think you could beat INFI steel with the Busse heat treat for edge stability under high impact use. CPM-3V with delta heat treat would be pretty close behind. S7 would be good too.

Good steel and heat treat reduces the amount of trade-off you have to make between chopping, stabbing and cutting performance. With either of those steel and heat treat combos above I think you could take a full-flat ground blade with thin stock and have it resist both macro and micro damage the same as a thick convex ground blade in another steel like 1095 or 52100 would, but still cut and stab well.

After a bit of experimentation the knife I currently have for both brush clearing and pig sticking is a Swamp Rat 'Mountainmandu Proto'. 10" blade, 3/16" thick, full flat grind, it chops blackberry, shrubs, and small timber just fine. It is SR-77 (mod S7) with the Busse heat treat, so the edge stability is extremely good even when kept very sharp. If it was INFI it would possibly be even better.

fIlShsA.jpg


Another one that would be good is a Busse 'Bushwacker Mistress'. 10" blade, 3/16" thick, convex ground, INFI steel. Much better chopper than the mountainmandu. Should be okay for sticking sows but you might have trouble stabbing through the thick gristle on a large boar. It would also struggle with thin, springy vegetation like blackberry - too heavy to be snappy enough.

u8WdAUw.jpg
 
Both of those Busses seem to be a lot like what I'm favoring most. I have a Boker El Gigante that's basically a Cold Steel Trailmaster but in Boker's N695 or 690. It's actually performed amazingly well, though I have not tried to cut down a 3" tree with it. I have most of the right tools for the job, and using a knife in place of an axe or hatchet would really be worst case scenario for me. That's why I seem to be tending more towards full, or near full flat ground blades. The performance is just so much better for the majority of the work I would actually be carrying it for, namely trail clearing. I have a Ka-Bar Jarosz Choppa waiting to get some action. I'm curious to see how it performs in my hands. I think I will still perfer the flat ground performance, but I would worry less about breaking the Jarosz.
I appreciate the comments about steel toughness and heat treat. Hopefully I will be able to decide on a Busse model and acquire it, in INFI, before I get any more gray hair. Until then I think I will explore 3V some more.
 
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I have recently come to the conclusion that there are 2 main types of choppers, at least now, in this students mind.
Basically a vegetable chopper and a wood/ brush chooper. Seeking after a grail woods chopper for awhile I have not quite narrowed my vision down to what exactly I am after.
Fairly hefty and with a blade length of 9-11 inches is the easy part, but blade geometry has me stuck.
Are large flat ground blades able to chop through a 4" tree for weeks, say making a long term survival shelter, or not? Rather have a Busse, Ka-Bar, or ESSE Junglas etc?
What about using it to stick pigs? I have seen flat ground wood choopers, and kitchen choppers seem to be up to a lot of tasks.
What would you want for a do all outdoor knife (with a bushcraft for smaller tasks)?
I believe you, when you say, that you havent 'quite narrowed down,' what you are after.

Well, we'll try to help.

First of all, get a chopper for chopping (wood) and a pig sticker for sticking pigs.

How much you are willing to spend and which steel, you'd prefer?

Until then, a few suggestions from the affordable end;

Pig sticker: Svord. Look into them. No nonsense blades, which work.

https://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_store.html?usrsearch=Pig+sticker

Chopper; if its merely for branches and brush, a Svord or other machete-like implement will be fine.

http://www.baryonyxknife.com/kimagr.html

As for alround 'bushcraft' knife, the sky is the limit.

ESEE 3. Nice affordable knives, which work.

https://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_store.html?usrsearch=Esee+3

Also Terävä 110. App $30. Cant beat that.

I cant link to it, as IIRC no forum supporting dealer has them (I bought directly from Finland) but trust you to find 'terävä jääkäripuukko 110'

They also make the SKRAMA heavy duty bush knife. Again a cheap tool, which works.

I have the two latter blades (in the carbon version) and heartedly recommend them.

If one was for strictly utilitarian blades and didnt care an iota about, how a tool looked, one could do very well with the 110 and the SKRAMA.
 
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Skrama and a Terava 110 gets my vote. Get the carbon versions. Get them with the sheaths too when in stock.
Proper working tools that have excellent steel and gets the work done. Very comfortable handles for endurance work.
If you want to spend more money they buy the sharpening kit to maintain them; DMP Diafold or something.

Use these two for a year and then ask yourself: "Do I really need anything else?" If you do then its for the fun of it; maybe a felling axe, even Small Forest Axe, and saw.
 
I'd rather use an axe or saw for a 3 inch or larger tree; they're a LOT less work.
I only use my knife for cutting/slicing things, cleaning game and fish, and whittling, which is what a knife is for.
If you insist on chopping/splitting with a knife, please consider a froe. They are made for that kind of work.

This kind of recommendation (that essentially denies that big knives have their place) always ignores the same things: That you might need to go off-trail, and thus clear a trail, and that a felled tree needs de-limbing... The only tool that does both slightly better than a big knife is the machete: Some will then say bring all the other tools, then add a machete! Bring your living room too while you are it...

Most machetes are badly made junk that are too bulky to hide inconspicuously on your person, or even in a small pack.

I doubt that most saws are less work than 4-8 chops all around then breaking a 3" branch.

As to the INFI stuff: I found my Busse Battlesaw (in INFI) to be well-made but thick edged to the point of being useless: Even with its Disney movie prop factory edge, it still suffered minor damage on wood:

A1ipULv.jpg


When thinned into a very nice 15 dps convex, it did not hold up that well: Perhaps a micro-bevel would have massively improved things (as it did for the thinner 5160 Voorhis below)... The Micro-bevelled (12 dps main-18 dps micro) 5160 steel below held up far better yet felt "thinner" overall, biting slightly deeper.

jrQcBdJ.jpg


With a micro-bevel the Busse might have done better for sure, but it already started with 15 dps, while the other ended at 18 dps. Ideally 15 dps main with 18-20 dps micro should be enough for chopping wood.

On a tight budget I would recommend the SP-52 or 53 ($50-60):

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But these are obtuse at the edge, and the recurve does not help sharpening on top of that. To combine chopping with cutting finesse and with budget not a consideration, go for the Randall Model 12: Its advantage over most cheaper options is the stick tang (thus better balance) and the stainless steel, combined with a magnificient "toughened" -slightly convexed near the edge- hollow grind that allows deeper bites with less effort and yet no damage:

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It is also the only forged stainless steel around. It is incredibly durable.

I don't recommend the Becker Bk-9 or Cold Steel Trailmaster, as the Bk-9 handle vibrates badly and the Cold Steel handle is far, far too thin, sinking backwards violently into the thumb forefinger web, and wasting all your effort. The CS convex SMIII edge is far too thick as well.

The Esee Junglas, or similar RTak-II, are good choices, but the thin 3/16" stock full tangs probably vibrate a bit, and they are carbon steel. It should be noted that every inch beyond 9" adds huge dividends: Never go under 10", the Randall Model 12 being a rare exception due to its balance and geometry: The 9" Randall will almost double your chopping depth over a 9.5" Trailmaster...

One budget blade that probably will do well could be this: Shrade schf 45:

SCHF45t.jpg


It appears to have done well with other testers, and is dirt cheap.

Another interesting choice is the Fallkniven Thor:
faknl1l.jpg


How is it better than the Trailmaster? Well the handle is a little more substantial, less prone to deforming under loads, and the blade is 10". Most important it sports a thinner convex from samples I saw. The black leather sheath is of exceptional quality, and that is important as well.

I found the handle slippery on mine, but it was not enough to disqualify it completely, just a little scary. The old beige sheath scratched mine like a railroad map etched on the blade, this to an unbelievable extent, no matter what I tried to "soften" that mineral-like beige leather... That was the main reason I sold mine: Avoid the older beige leather models like the bubonic plague... The beige snap loop was a pathetic design also. They must have known about the issues to change the sheaths to the new ones.

Another I would mildly recommend is the GSO-10: I did not find the steel great, but the blunt point design does hit with great authority, and despite being slim, the handle is comfortable and really flawless. It really felt at home chopping, more than other "pointier" knives. I found the steel was outperformed in edge holding by the 420J of a cheap Rambo clone, but it did chop better owing the blade heft of the wide blade and blunt point, and, unlike 420J, the cold did not affect its CPM 3V!:

pOhDDi1.jpg


My own favoured choice is still some of the cheap Rambo II copies, particularly the discontinued United Cutlery (Master above, but that has a somewhat dubious handle assembly): I found them better ground/finished than the original Liles I had (both UC and Lile with similar invulnerable resin epoxy handle assemblies), the Taiwanese 420J steel being superior to an overwhelming extent, while chopping Maple, to everything else I have tried (except when it is -34 C!)...

The pointy Rambo II design is not the best for chopping (but still 50% better than a Trailmaster, owing to the much greater handle bulk), but the cheap 420J was so obviously superior in fine edge holding (and even more dramatically so in ease of sharpening) to everything else that there was really no other choice to combine chopping with fine slicing... I wish all my knives were made in this 420J...

Gaston
 
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Matt Graham has a condor knife(primitive bush machete) that works great ,I have the wooden handle one -great value machetes, he uses his for a ton of stuff on various shows .They give you ss or carbon steel choices also
 
I use a short machete or regular machete for chopping the most. Then get a pig sticker. The pig sticker choice is not really within my experience range. How much are the two activities mixed beyond cutting a branch or three? I agree with Gaston on the 10" size minimum in general for a chopper knife. Grind... convex for the stronger edge.

Another of his comments I found interesting.... the stick tang. Many feel that the thinner tang results in less strength. But the design makes the knife more blade heavy or weight forward which you want with a chopper. This echos a comment by 42 Blades a while back. You also generally want a fatter handle for chopping versus more delicate cutting.
 
OP, I highly recommend you use the ignore function or simply disregard anything Gaston444 has to say. He routinely makes claims that are out-and-out misinformation and has freely admitted to only using a knife outdoors a total of about 5 times.

As for a multiuse chopper, you might look at the Ontario Marine Raider bowie. It's an inexpensive option that offers an acute tip, but plenty of weight for chopping as well.
 
Hmm an interesting set of parameters.
I havent used anything in INFi from busse. (Never used any of their knives)

I am very familiar with CPM 3V. Its an exellent steel thst should definitely be able to handle both uses. I would recommend a 10 inch blade.
I would be interested in making a knife for this task, would be a good challenge. I have a different idea for the geometry. My first thought is a thinner blade (0.146-0.160) and do a full height convex grind and keep the edge relatively thin but not overdo it to keep it strong. And make a double edge point for the pig sticking. I dont have any experience with the pig sticking part so i would need to look more into it. The idea is a thin super tough machete styled knife. CPM 3V is nearly indestructible at 59-60HRC and still has good edge holding. Because the knife is light and thin it will chop quite well. Obviously it does have limitations, but my ETT Machetes that i have made work very well in this aspect.

My second idea would be to use 0.220-0.275 thick stock and do the same convex style grind with a more pronounced tip and top edge or swedge to assist in stabbing.

Just some food for thought.
Best of luck on your decision!
 
I prefer the older Swamp Rats or a Scrap Yard with res-c handles for comfort...and the steel is great.

No idea if they serve as pig stickers though.
 
I don't now what your price point is, but you said "grail", so I'll just go for that. If you want a "chopper" chopper that is stabby, lightweight yet tough, I would go with something like the Carothers light chopper(or the new medium chopper, pretty awesome!), Busse basic 10, a custom(usually my preference), or a similar production if you don't want to spend so much.
But, if you are looking for something that can chop, clear brush, pig stick, etc. I would without a doubt mix chopper, machete, and brush sword, into a custom shorter slimline machete. When I am out doing my clearing work on the property, my favorite combination is a slimline machete, a chopper, and a saw(and sometime axe). I choose to bring the slimline machete/brush sword for the brush clearing, especially when it is stuff like blackberries, which I battle with a lot!
Anyways, one tool could easily combine the two first tools. Something like a 14-ish inch blade, thicker stock than a machete, like .150"-.170" stock, full height convex, full flat with convex edge, or high saber with convex edge, and a handle length that you could choke back on the handle for a little extra length with the thorny brush. Like Colin from Shannon Steel Labs said above, CPM 3V with the right heat treat can be quite indestructible, and is also easy to sharpen IMO, and good corrosion resistance. One of my brush sword, and choppers is from Colin and they are great tools! The two in the picture with the same handle material, green and black G10. CPM 3V brush sword and a Z-Finit chopper/camp knife, both great hard use tools!
That setup chops just as good, if not better than choppers, it can clear brush like nothing else, and is shabby enough to be a pig sticker. So, in short, I would spend a little extra cash, and go custom. That said, there are also some amazing production blades out there. Very good quality, especially for the money.
Also, a good folding saw is priceless! My favorites are ones with cheap and easily replaceable blades.

AB45B5AF-0C0D-4F93-80F9-689A86EB7378.jpeg A2319B4A-9A65-4BA7-B05C-49A189371662.jpeg
 
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