School Me on Choppers

For good choppers that won't break the bank take a look at what Condor Tool and Knife has to offer. Their Pack Golok or Mini Duku Parang both would do nicely.
The Pack Golok is my favorite chopper for branches and trees. Have looked at the Mini Duku Parang and like it. Just haven't gotten one. I tend to view this as a two knife kind of exercise. My new Bark River Wilderness Explorer is probably going to replace my other "general woods knives" and I suspect it would do just fine for light chopping here and there or splitting kindling. I just don't usually chop much unless I plan on carrying a machete or the Pack Golok for brush clearing on one of my day hikes.... essentially unofficial trail maintenance.
 
Another option for a GRAIL is anything made by Scott Gossman. He has knives routinely available on his website and they will all go toe to toe with the best options out there.
 
Hmm an interesting set of parameters.
I havent used anything in INFi from busse. (Never used any of their knives)

I am very familiar with CPM 3V. Its an exellent steel thst should definitely be able to handle both uses. I would recommend a 10 inch blade.
I would be interested in making a knife for this task, would be a good challenge. I have a different idea for the geometry. My first thought is a thinner blade (0.146-0.160) and do a full height convex grind and keep the edge relatively thin but not overdo it to keep it strong. And make a double edge point for the pig sticking. I dont have any experience with the pig sticking part so i would need to look more into it. The idea is a thin super tough machete styled knife. CPM 3V is nearly indestructible at 59-60HRC and still has good edge holding. Because the knife is light and thin it will chop quite well. Obviously it does have limitations, but my ETT Machetes that i have made work very well in this aspect.

My second idea would be to use 0.220-0.275 thick stock and do the same convex style grind with a more pronounced tip and top edge or swedge to assist in stabbing.

Just some food for thought.
Best of luck on your decision!

I go pig hunting using dogs and a knife occasionally, here are my thoughts on the pig sticking side of things...

Length: an eight or nine inch blade would be more than adequate for any size pig you would be willing to walk up to - a boar bigger than that would be too dangerous to approach, you would just shoot it. Beyond 10" in length you risk driving the knife all the way through a small pig and out the other side, which can be a problem if there are dogs involved - it is possible to stab your own dog. Pigs tend to run to cover, so are likely to have stuffed themselves into any available pile of logs, dense bushes, vines, hole in the ground, etc. So you have to be able to maneuver the knife in a tight, awkward space. So the shorter the knife the better for these two reasons. Optimal blade length would be about 8 inches if it was just a pig knife, but if you want it as a chopper / brush clearer as well, I would compromise on optimal length to take it up to 10" or maybe even 11".

Shape: the perfect stabber is a bayonet, every stabbing weapon in human history has had approximately this shape, so the closer to a bayonet shape you can get the better. This means thin stock, narrow blade, long and pointy, drop point, and sharpened both sides. Of course, this is not a great shape for chopping, so a compromise will have to be made somewhere. For sows just about anything that's sharp would work, but big boars get 'armor plating' around their rib cage in the form of layers of gristle and fat, so optimizing for stabbing is important if tackling mature boars.

Stabbing: when you stab a pig, it goes between the ribs at the bottom of the rib cage behind the front leg. That's where the heart and lungs sit. If possible you want to cut open both the heart and the lungs (the heart sits right at the bottom of the rib cage, and the lungs sit on top of the heart). So you push the knife in, either aiming for the heart of the point between the heart and lungs, and then rotate it upwards and downwards repeatedly to try to cut both of those organs (the knife pivots around a point on the blade close to the guard while you're rotating it up and down). This means it needs to do three cutting motions well: cut upwards, cut downwards, and stab. So a sharpened top swedge for about one third to one half the blade (at least) is very useful. (I'm in Australia, so it cannot be a full length double-sided blade as that is considered a dagger. People get around that by having the sharpened swedge only extend for about a third of the blade. Same requirement is probably true in some States in the US).

Fuller: a fuller can help kill a pig faster by introducing a pocket of air into the heart. The organs are packed in and under pressure and blood and liquid is everywhere, so as soon as you stab it liquid will fill the cavity and the wound in the heart will 'self-seal' under the pressure and surrounding liquid. The pig will still die but it takes a good few seconds longer (10 seconds?), during which time it is suffering, and is also still dangerous. In that 10 seconds a sow could bite you, a boar could tusk your dog, etc. A fuller carries some air in and if that gets inside the heart it pumps the air through and should kill it pretty much instantly. So having a deep fuller going the full length of the blade and extending as close to the blade tip as possible would be beneficial.

Guard: when you stab it helps to have a guard that stops your hand sliding forward onto the blade.

Chopping / brush clearing: Pigs run for cover, so you often need to push your way into thick vegetation to get to it. Where I am (near-coastal Australia) this might be a pile of fallen branches, a blackberry bush, a thick patch of ferns, etc. So having a knife that can very quickly deal with thin, springy vegetation (including tough, stringy stuff like blackberry) as well as small wood (up to a couple of inches) is very useful. For that you want a slightly heavier blade than a bayonet, with some (but not too much) forward weight. Anything that makes it 'snappy' when swinging it. A big heavy blade doesn't work on thin springy vegetation, or at least is extremely slow to use. You generally want to get to the pig as fast as possible, before it runs away again or injures your dog.

Other qualities: OP wants to build a survival shelter and do trail clearing, and this is the one task that will seriously compromise the knife as a pig sticker. To meet OP's needs I would take the knife described above (if I was designing it) and make it a little longer and a little heavier than is optimal for all the things above. So maybe an 11" blade, .22" or even .25" thick to add weight, full flat grind (which OP stated is a preference), sharpened top swedge to only one third the blade length, quite thin behind the edge, and a fuller. This would make it a good brush knife while still being an adequate pig knife. Someone above mentioned a Busse B11, this would be about the perfect knife if a sharpened swedge and fuller was added to it.
 
Love it! You guys are great.

Colin, we will have to talk at some point for sure, I'm Colin too by the way. You were right on with what I was working at, and ATJ's comments to follow were right on point for me too. I think I basically I want a Wakizashi type short sword hybrid maybe with a long narrow swedge for some added weight up front. Something with an edge that will hold up to chopping but also be a good slicer and stabby. I am not easy on my tools but I try and understand and stay within a tools limits. I have destroyed quite a few blades of decent quality not really intending to and also had cheap blades far exceed expectations.
It's just frustrating to not really have a go to large blade still, after over 35yrs of blade use. I am pretty sure most of my issues can be overcome by proper steel selection and excellent heat treat.
I keep seeing awesome daggers and short swords on t.v. and the movies and wondering where they are... and what they are frankly.
I have done so much work with a machete I almost never want to see one again.They can do "almost" anything in a pinch, but maybe not for very long. I opened many a coconut, cleared every kind of brush, cut large kava root tubers for hours at a time and was even seriously, challenged to a machete duel.
Killed many a pig too in Hawaii during those times, most caught by dogs and some by hand. I had a cheap waki style short blade about 9" which dispatched them well. It was probably made of some sort of leaf spring steel like other blades I brought back from Thailand, cheap but awesome tools.
I honestly don't stick too many pigs these days, most are shot. Sometimes we stick them pulling them out of traps. If I'm going to eat it I still like to do it that way.
Currawong, great insights on pigs and blades. Honestly I keep getting drawn to bayonets as well. I am really thinking hard about a bayonet style dagger maybe 3/16" thick double edged full convex with a fuller in the middle and a 10" blade. It would be a little light for chopping, and a tad long for pigs but would do well for both. I think single sided is more to my liking though.
 
He grew up in civil war time Congo, I had 3 girlfriends at the farm I was running. I wasn't stupid, called for back up and he took off to the other side if the island. I was considered local at that point and had friends including 4 huge Tongans who adopted me a few days after beating the tar out of me one drunken night. Not very exciting but I didn't like my chances and I had plans that night!
Edit... we had anywhere from about 8-20 college kids at the farm at any given time doing work trade for room and board and college credit, lot's of crazyness was always going on!
 
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Why again is a cable tang bad for chopping? I think it's the Laredo Bowie that had one, or maybe it's the Natchez.
I'm narrowing.
10" 3V full or stick tang 1 5/8 to 1 3/4" wide
long sharpened swedge, flat ground ( maybe 80%) fuller possibly.
The Benchmade Presidio fixed 155BK is actually one of my favorite users and looks a lot like what I'm imagining. That knife about 25-33% bigger would probably be just what I want. I have cut numerous 1 1/2" branches off a tree then sliced right through light small standing weed stocks with ease directly after. I have done that quite a bit with that knife and have only had to strop it back to it's razor sharp factory edge. No rolling or chipping yet after hours of use.
One of J Doyle's recent knives, the one with the wicked hamon, is very close to the idea I'm thinking of. That knife is just so nice I'd hardly want to use it and of course a knife like that is out of my range for awhile. Looking for more of a user. Im still just concerned with edge stability on flat ground knives.
 
One of J Doyle's recent knives, the one with the wicked hamon, is very close to the idea I'm thinking of. That knife is just so nice I'd hardly want to use it and of course a knife like that is out of my range for awhile. Looking for more of a user. Im still just concerned with edge stability on flat ground knives.
Very true, you should worry about edge stability problems on flat ground blades. You have to be sure it is thick enough to chop, yet thin enough to slice through light brush, grass, etc. I have two brush swords, from the same maker. Same steel, same length, both flat ground, almost the same in every way. The only two ways they differed was one of them was thicker stock(.180"), but taken down to be much thinner behind the edge, and the other was thinner stock(.150", maybe a little less), but it was quite a bit thicker behind the edge. The thicker stock one that is thinner behind the edge slices like a light saber, but I get some edge deformation if I chop hardwoods. The other one still flies through grass like brush, but it can also chop through any hardwood there is without any damage to speak of. I have even come down on a trailer frame with a full power swing on that one, accidentally obviously(heart stopped), and I was amazed that after 2 minutes with a medium grit ceramic rod, it was hair popping sharp again. And it has not had a problem since!
So, basically what I'm trying to say is make sure you have a good all around blade. Thin enough to slice, but thick enough to chop without any damage. It may not do everything perfectly, but if it does all you want really well, you should be more than happy.
 
He grew up in civil war time Congo, I had 3 girlfriends at the farm I was running. I wasn't stupid, called for back up and he took off to the other side if the island. I was considered local at that point and had friends including 4 huge Tongans who adopted me a few days after beating the tar out of me one drunken night. Not very exciting but I didn't like my chances and I had plans that night!
Edit... we had anywhere from about 8-20 college kids at the farm at any given time doing work trade for room and board and college credit, lot's of crazyness was always going on!
Wot?

Context?


Love it! You guys are great.

Colin, we will have to talk at some point for sure, I'm Colin too by the way. You were right on with what I was working at, and ATJ's comments to follow were right on point for me too. I think I basically I want a Wakizashi type short sword hybrid maybe with a long narrow swedge for some added weight up front. Something with an edge that will hold up to chopping but also be a good slicer and stabby. I am not easy on my tools but I try and understand and stay within a tools limits. I have destroyed quite a few blades of decent quality not really intending to and also had cheap blades far exceed expectations.
It's just frustrating to not really have a go to large blade still, after over 35yrs of blade use. I am pretty sure most of my issues can be overcome by proper steel selection and excellent heat treat.
I keep seeing awesome daggers and short swords on t.v. and the movies and wondering where they are... and what they are frankly.
I have done so much work with a machete I almost never want to see one again.They can do "almost" anything in a pinch, but maybe not for very long. I opened many a coconut, cleared every kind of brush, cut large kava root tubers for hours at a time and was even seriously, challenged to a machete duel.
Killed many a pig too in Hawaii during those times, most caught by dogs and some by hand. I had a cheap waki style short blade about 9" which dispatched them well. It was probably made of some sort of leaf spring steel like other blades I brought back from Thailand, cheap but awesome tools.
I honestly don't stick too many pigs these days, most are shot. Sometimes we stick them pulling them out of traps. If I'm going to eat it I still like to do it that way.
Currawong, great insights on pigs and blades. Honestly I keep getting drawn to bayonets as well. I am really thinking hard about a bayonet style dagger maybe 3/16" thick double edged full convex with a fuller in the middle and a 10" blade. It would be a little light for chopping, and a tad long for pigs but would do well for both. I think single sided is more to my liking though.

Still not sold on the one blade for it all - let alone a waki or Busse B11 for sticking (?).

But what do I know, I use a honking big bowie for pig sticking. Turned out to be perfect for the purpose btw but yes, a smaller knife can do it.

NB I dont use the relatively fine edge of the sticker for clearing brush nor batoning.

I still say a dedicated knife for pig sticking.

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The stcker works perfectly. You dont want an edge, which can do this for also clearing brush or batoning:

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Why again is a cable tang bad for chopping? I think it's the Laredo Bowie that had one, or maybe it's the Natchez.
I'm narrowing.
10" 3V full or stick tang 1 5/8 to 1 3/4" wide
long sharpened swedge, flat ground ( maybe 80%) fuller possibly.
The Benchmade Presidio fixed 155BK is actually one of my favorite users and looks a lot like what I'm imagining. That knife about 25-33% bigger would probably be just what I want. I have cut numerous 1 1/2" branches off a tree then sliced right through light small standing weed stocks with ease directly after. I have done that quite a bit with that knife and have only had to strop it back to it's razor sharp factory edge. No rolling or chipping yet after hours of use.
One of J Doyle's recent knives, the one with the wicked hamon, is very close to the idea I'm thinking of. That knife is just so nice I'd hardly want to use it and of course a knife like that is out of my range for awhile. Looking for more of a user. Im still just concerned with edge stability on flat ground knives.

The cable tang CS Natchez is a dedicated fighting bowie not meant for batoning hence some batoning owners have ruined the knife.

Dont use a cable tang for batoning.

Using an axe would be better.
But then of course everybody influenced by the many YT vids wants to baton any knife, they have handy.
 
We burn firewood for the majority of our heat and I think I used a knife to baton 1 time in the last 10 years.
He was pretty psycho and a definite knife fighter, he wasn't long for the farm anyway.
I took the disks to an area of the garden that apparently haf some of his corn in it, though from all I could see it hadn't been touched in a few months. Three foot tall grass and nothing marked. I still laugh my ass off. Poor guy never had anything.

I need to look into old school fighting short swords. I wouldn't mind carrying a 14" blade and I think I could handle it fine with pigs. I do tend to agree though about a blade being to long for pigs, even an 8" can do it fine with most pigs that I would take with a knife. I just don't want to be afraid about breaking it, esp if I don't have a hatchet and I need to make some camp poles. I think maybe carrying a 9-11" slicer stabber on my belt and a larger more dedicated chopper on my pack is the way I'll eventually go.
 
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I agree with blade scout about the long slimline machete/brush sword not making a good pig sticking tool. That you would want a separate to for. The length makes it more uncontrollable and dangerous.
But for general woods use, I'd go with a thicker stock, thin height, slimline machete/chopper/brush sword.
There really is no one tool to do everything great. Sad to say.
 
Yeah, I think the sword machete is what I'm looking for. I have a sticker and a couple decent choppers. It just seems weird to need soo many different tools for different jobs. It's hard to decide what to take into the woods when I don't want to carry too much.
 
Gaston stated:
"When thinned into a very nice 15 dps convex, it did not hold up that well: Perhaps a micro-bevel would have massively improved things (as it did for the thinner 5160 Voorhis below)... The Micro-bevelled (12 dps main-18 dps micro) 5160 steel below held up far better yet felt "thinner" overall, biting slightly deeper."

30 degrees inclusive with or without a microbevel is too much for chopping wood especially hardwoods in the Canadian winters cold. I sometimes keep folders at 35 to 40 degrees inclusive. If the knife can't slice at 40 degrees per side you aren't sharpening properly.I've seen knives at 50 degrees inclusive that will shave hairs.

Each individual knife steel/heat treat/sharpening combo will have different failure points on whatever task you ask of it. Cold not only makes the wood much harder but it also can make steel more brittle. If you want to push the knife to failure then don't call it junk.Every one will fail a some point. Change the angle and thickness of the bevel to what you need.

Remember why many of us carry more than one tool. To keep one really thin and sharp for slicing then one for cutting wood. With one knife compromises have to be made making one knife not ideal for either task. If you choose only one knife then find it doesn't do what you need you are failing not your equipment.

Nice knives BTW.

Joe
 
I've seen knives at 50 degrees inclusive that will shave hairs.
It seems most fixed blades I buy come factory fresh with 50° inclusive edges, even the smallish ones, and most shave if sharpened properly.
I generally only reduce to 40 on knives I use esp for slicing. I have a couple knives I may try 34 with for fish. Generally I need a real razor if one of my knives at 40 is too slow.
 
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I have recently come to the conclusion that there are 2 main types of choppers, at least now, in this students mind.
Basically a vegetable chopper and a wood/ brush chooper. Seeking after a grail woods chopper for awhile I have not quite narrowed my vision down to what exactly I am after.
Fairly hefty and with a blade length of 9-11 inches is the easy part, but blade geometry has me stuck.
Are large flat ground blades able to chop through a 4" tree for weeks, say making a long term survival shelter, or not? Rather have a Busse, Ka-Bar, or ESSE Junglas etc?
What about using it to stick pigs? I have seen flat ground wood choopers, and kitchen choppers seem to be up to a lot of tasks.
What would you want for a do all outdoor knife (with a bushcraft for smaller tasks)?
For one tool survival i have found the Ontario SP10 Marine Raider to be the knife i trust most. Is it the best chopper? No there are better but not by much but the Marine Raider i trust all around. I love the BK9 and others like it but i do not trust them to not break while spending many hours of shelter building which includes downing trees and debranching them. The Marine Raider is thick and strong and heavy which helps it chop right thru branches and the 1095 steel is quality steel that keeps a good edge and it hones right back to sharp hfter a long day of surviving in the wilderness.

Here in the Ozarks feral hogs are few and far between but south of us there are lots but if your not using a pack of dogs to hunt then trap hunting would be your best bet but reguatdless the Marine Raider will take care of you.

My choice, the Ontario SP10 Marine Raider, there are better knives but not betyer knives to chose.
 
I have a few, but I'm going to give the Grayman Sub-Saharan 10 a try. A little different with the once-side chisel-grind, but the profile is wide enough to use for clearing, heavy enough for chopping with a slight recurve, and pointy-enough (with a partial double-edge) for stabbing.

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What would you want for a do all outdoor knife (with a bushcraft for smaller tasks)?

Lots of good suggestions. One I don't see yet that deserves a mention, the Swamprat M9. It's not produced any more, but they still come up on the exchange here at times.

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M9 in back, Ratweiler front

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Love it! You guys are great.

Colin, we will have to talk at some point for sure, I'm Colin too by the way. You were right on with what I was working at, and ATJ's comments to follow were right on point for me too. I think I basically I want a Wakizashi type short sword hybrid maybe with a long narrow swedge for some added weight up front. Something with an edge that will hold up to chopping but also be a good slicer and stabby. I am not easy on my tools but I try and understand and stay within a tools limits. I have destroyed quite a few blades of decent quality not really intending to and also had cheap blades far exceed expectations.
It's just frustrating to not really have a go to large blade still, after over 35yrs of blade use. I am pretty sure most of my issues can be overcome by proper steel selection and excellent heat treat.
I keep seeing awesome daggers and short swords on t.v. and the movies and wondering where they are... and what they are frankly.
I have done so much work with a machete I almost never want to see one again.They can do "almost" anything in a pinch, but maybe not for very long. I opened many a coconut, cleared every kind of brush, cut large kava root tubers for hours at a time and was even seriously, challenged to a machete duel.
Killed many a pig too in Hawaii during those times, most caught by dogs and some by hand. I had a cheap waki style short blade about 9" which dispatched them well. It was probably made of some sort of leaf spring steel like other blades I brought back from Thailand, cheap but awesome tools.
I honestly don't stick too many pigs these days, most are shot. Sometimes we stick them pulling them out of traps. If I'm going to eat it I still like to do it that way.
Currawong, great insights on pigs and blades.

Haha no kidding! Another Colin!
Yea feel free to msg me on here or email me. Also phone calls and texts are welcome!
ATJ999 can attest to the toughness of 3V, he is not easy on his tools. Hes basically my unofficial hard use tester.

I definitely think i can make something like that. A shorter wakizashi style blade with swedge up top for extra weight.

I don't now what your price point is, but you said "grail", so I'll just go for that. If you want a "chopper" chopper that is stabby, lightweight yet tough, I would go with something like the Carothers light chopper(or the new medium chopper, pretty awesome!), Busse basic 10, a custom(usually my preference), or a similar production if you don't want to spend so much.
But, if you are looking for something that can chop, clear brush, pig stick, etc. I would without a doubt mix chopper, machete, and brush sword, into a custom shorter slimline machete. When I am out doing my clearing work on the property, my favorite combination is a slimline machete, a chopper, and a saw(and sometime axe). I choose to bring the slimline machete/brush sword for the brush clearing, especially when it is stuff like blackberries, which I battle with a lot!
Anyways, one tool could easily combine the two first tools. Something like a 14-ish inch blade, thicker stock than a machete, like .150"-.170" stock, full height convex, full flat with convex edge, or high saber with convex edge, and a handle length that you could choke back on the handle for a little extra length with the thorny brush. Like Colin from Shannon Steel Labs said above, CPM 3V with the right heat treat can be quite indestructible, and is also easy to sharpen IMO, and good corrosion resistance. One of my brush sword, and choppers is from Colin and they are great tools! The two in the picture with the same handle material, green and black G10. CPM 3V brush sword and a Z-Finit chopper/camp knife, both great hard use tools!
That setup chops just as good, if not better than choppers, it can clear brush like nothing else, and is stabby enough to be a pig sticker. So, in short, I would spend a little extra cash, and go custom. That said, there are also some amazing production blades out there. Very good quality, especially for the Price.

View attachment 891812 View attachment 891813

I miss both of those customs i made you. Damn, that Zfinit knife chopped like a beast. And the Slimline machete was a monster biggest one i have ever made. And the cutting geometry was exellent! Glad they still get used in the rotation!!!

Also a side note, that Zfinit chopper (Camp Kaiju) is now in the lineup of knives I make. Seems to be popular! Ive used 3V and Zfinit for them. I may try a couple other steels too. I have one in 0.350 Ztuff im working on with 9 " blade!
 
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