School's in Session

fast14riot said:
Oh, and that aplies to O1 as well, it just needs a longer soak at temp before quenching, but canola is fine for it. I believe it requires a 20 min soak at 1500-1550*F.


-X
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X, when you're referring to the term soak, that is in regard to time spent in the oven?
 
cordgear said:
LOL! All I have at this time is 1095, and O1 right now. So I would use conventional motor oil to quench those? How often do you change the oil out too?

I believe I saw in a video you were utilizing an old crockpot for your quenching. Is that recommended for some reason, or would any metal container be ideal?
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Xander had some great advice too...

Canola, never motor oil. That is really only for semi faster steels, I think it quenches iun the 14 second range but that is a guess.

You really want 28 second oil for O1 and Parks 50 or a very fast oil for the 1095.

With the canola you can quench both but it isn't ideal for either. (this is a subject of huge controversy among makers about this subject)

Any metal container for oil. I use a roaster as I can preheat it easily in the winter. Rebar works great too but I think the oil lasts longer with a slow heat.

If you can get an upright metal tube (6" black pipe) and weld on a base that is probably the best for quenching. Straight down is the least risky quench. I quench horizontally as the roasters work great still.
 
I like brine for 1095 but lose some knives that way. I wouldn't really recommend it until later if you want to pursue those things. Long story...

Soak time is time at temperature, like food it takes steel a bit to get to temp all of the way through too.

Great link explaining heat treat for knives. http://www.cashenblades.com/heattreatment.html

There are lots of charts and figures to look up and remember many are for industrial applications which have different purposes than knives do.
 
cordgear said:
X, when you're referring to the term soak, that is in regard to time spent in the oven?
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Sort of, it is time spent at temperature.. That means once it comes to temp, you then let it soak at that temp for the amount of time.

Also, some stainless steels benefit from a cryo treatment. Dry ice and acetone gets you to about -105*F, LN gets you down to -325*F. Home freezers do nothing. This should be considered an extension of the quenching process, while some SS wil be fine with out a cryo cycle.

Again, you can get a useable knife from those two steels and canola, but it will not be an optimum HT. Personally I would not sell one done that way, but would use and carry one.


-X

Daniel and I are apperantly both skipping out on our work duties for this thread, lol!
 
fast14riot said:
Sort of, it is time spent at temperature.. That means once it comes to temp, you then let it soak at that temp for the amount of time.

Also, some stainless steels benefit from a cryo treatment. Dry ice and acetone gets you to about -105*F, LN gets you down to -325*F. Home freezers do nothing. This should be considered an extension of the quenching process, while some SS wil be fine with out a cryo cycle.

Again, you can get a useable knife from those two steels and canola, but it will not be an optimum HT. Personally I would not sell one done that way, but would use and carry one.


-X

Daniel and I are apperantly both skipping out on our work duties for this thread, lol!
Click to expand...

Yep... and to be nit-picky dry ice slurry is sub zero not cryo, lol. There is a difference because Cryo forms ETA Carbides... nothing to really worry about right now.

I agree, they will be great with canola but I'd keep them for testing or close friends who understand they are for testing. I'd consider selling both and buying 1084fg from NJSteelBaron or selling one and getting either Parks 50 for 1095 or a slower oil for the 01.

Keep the oil clean and covered, it will last you a good while. I'm not sure how long and it depends on if you overheat the oil, etc.


I'm watching Jade too, lol she just filled up a box full of stuffed animals and jumped in! :D
 
Haha, yeah keep it covered! I had rats get into mine and have drank it down maybe a couple of cups worth, rat crap diarrhea right next to th tank!


-X
 
Daniel Fairly Knives said:
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That's a lot of good info on setup to take into consideration—thanks Daniel! I don't think I would've considered UV protection as a safety measure. The link to USA Knifemakers you posted earlier has this particular oven in stock: http://usaknifemaker.com/heat-treat...n-oven-and-kilns-c-57-168/kinfedogs-oven.html

Since you gave me the brilliant idea to run a 220 extension from my dryer outlet, I think I could pull that off. That is assuming there isn't a limit to the effectiveness/range of a 220V extension cord. Also, the oven found in the above link is not digital. Do you feel that would pose an issue starting off?
 
Daniel Fairly Knives said:
I like brine for 1095 but lose some knives that way. I wouldn't really recommend it until later if you want to pursue those things. Long story...

Soak time is time at temperature, like food it takes steel a bit to get to temp all of the way through too.

Great link explaining heat treat for knives. http://www.cashenblades.com/heattreatment.html

There are lots of charts and figures to look up and remember many are for industrial applications which have different purposes than knives do.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reference link. I was wondering about the various temps and such.

fast14riot said:
Sort of, it is time spent at temperature.. That means once it comes to temp, you then let it soak at that temp for the amount of time.

Also, some stainless steels benefit from a cryo treatment. Dry ice and acetone gets you to about -105*F, LN gets you down to -325*F. Home freezers do nothing. This should be considered an extension of the quenching process, while some SS wil be fine with out a cryo cycle.

Again, you can get a usable knife from those two steels and canola, but it will not be an optimum HT. Personally I would not sell one done that way, but would use and carry one.


-X

Daniel and I are apparently both skipping out on our work duties for this thread, lol!
Click to expand...

I can't help but feel I should stay away from stainless steels for some time initially. Dry ice, acetone, cryo cycle ... sounds like lines of script from the movie Demolition Man, lol.

Daniel Fairly Knives said:
Yep... and to be nit-picky dry ice slurry is sub zero not cryo, lol. There is a difference because Cryo forms ETA Carbides... nothing to really worry about right now.

I agree, they will be great with canola but I'd keep them for testing or close friends who understand they are for testing. I'd consider selling both and buying 1084fg from NJSteelBaron or selling one and getting either Parks 50 for 1095 or a slower oil for the 01.

Keep the oil clean and covered, it will last you a good while. I'm not sure how long and it depends on if you overheat the oil, etc.


I'm watching Jade too, lol she just filled up a box full of stuffed animals and jumped in! :D
Click to expand...


1084fg ... is 1080+ something completely different then? I got a sheet of that from AKS.
 
cordgear said:
Thanks for the reference link. I was wondering about the various temps and such.



I can't help but feel I should stay away from stainless steels for some time initially. Dry ice, acetone, cryo cycle ... sounds like lines of script from the movie Demolition Man, lol.




1084fg ... is 1080+ something completely different then? I got a sheet of that from AKS.
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It is good to start simple. Sticking to just one steel for a while is not a bad idea.

Stainless is complicated but so are steels like 1095, it is important to treat each one correctly.

The dry ice treatment with some steels is actually part of the quench. The conversion point is a very low temperature as opposed to many steels which are done with quench at room temperature. (when I say part of the quench I mean plate quench to room temp, cool in the freezer then put in the dry ice slurry... this does get complicated as it can be done after a quick temper cycle... don;t worry about all of this though :) )

I looked up the 1080 and it sounds close, I'd consider calling AKS and asking, they are a great to talk to. It looks like a top notch steel that is for sure and is very close in composition. The Vanadium in it helps with fine grain and more.
 
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1084/1080 can be treated exactly the same. I have used both and do nothing different between them. I also see no real world difference between the finished knives.

When HT'ing 1080/1084 a handy trick for knowing when to quench is to use kosher salt as a temperature indicator. It melts at 1475*F, and you want to quench at 1500*F. The curie point is 1414*F (the temp when steel becomes non-magnetic) and far too low for full hardening. Non magnetic is a good indicator to watch things closely, let it get one color shade hotter then quench. That's why I like using kosher salt, I usually over shoot my temp just a bit so I know I'm ready to quench when I pull the blade out, sprinkle a little salt on it and if it melts I'm good to quench.

It cuts, files, grinds, sands and hardens so nicely, I just love the stuff! It performs very well,too.


-Xander
 
Okay ... I'm now inspired to focus on a single steel at this time. It makes complete sense. I guess I'll just have to send off my other steels for HT services in the meantime, and gain a mastery of each steel over a period of time.

Great insight guys!
 
Sounds good!

You will like the 1080/1084, I think you will get more out of it than any other steel.

There is a reason I keep buying it! It gets sharp as can be and is perfect in many ways. You can make most any knife from it, the only real downside is that it isn't stainless.
 
Yep, I make kamisori and straight razors from it too. Its fine enough grained and holds a great edge for it too.

Its not a "beginner" steel, its just easy to work with and achieve great results from. Forges nicely too.


-Xander
 
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