-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Schrade X-Timer
- Thread starter mountaineergoldnblue
- Start date
Codger_64
Moderator
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2004
- Messages
- 62,324
I guess now is as good of a time as any to tell a little bit of what I have learned about the 6OTX & 7OTX.
Three quarters of the covers were produced in China. The machining process was quite slow and Schrade Ellenville couldn’t make them fast enough to feed production demands. All of the clips came from China. Of course the coatings were shopped out (Anodizing is a specific process they were not equipped for). If you disassemble one the knives you can tell the Chinese version from the Ellenville version. The China version was machined on the inside (non-textured side) the Ellenville version was not. I'm adding a picture of the internals of the 6OTX, there are no machining marks on it indicating it was produced in Ellenville. The lines on it are from the extruding process.
I am sure that no one at Schrade particularly liked the idea of having to buy things from China, but that's the way it was. Remember that Wal-Mart had just put the knife to their throat demanding further manufacturer price reductions or else. At the time, Wal-Mart represented nearly 80% of Schrades gross annual sales. Ironically, If Wal-Mart had been a country, at that time they would have figured as China's fourth largest trading partner.
IMHO, had Schrade not been driven to bankruptcy, they would now be having much more of their product made, if not assembled overseas. Likely by the same factories that now churn out product to sell to TBLLC. In fact, some of the same factories do provide the same molded handles for the Safe-T-Grip and X-Timer series that supplied Schrade. And the Nylon sheaths as well. And the boxes.
I know, I coulda/shoulda kept this to myself, but I thought you might want to know. It does pertain to manufacturing process changes that you can see by examining the knives closely. The economic and political ramifications are water under the bridge.
Codger
Three quarters of the covers were produced in China. The machining process was quite slow and Schrade Ellenville couldn’t make them fast enough to feed production demands. All of the clips came from China. Of course the coatings were shopped out (Anodizing is a specific process they were not equipped for). If you disassemble one the knives you can tell the Chinese version from the Ellenville version. The China version was machined on the inside (non-textured side) the Ellenville version was not. I'm adding a picture of the internals of the 6OTX, there are no machining marks on it indicating it was produced in Ellenville. The lines on it are from the extruding process.
I am sure that no one at Schrade particularly liked the idea of having to buy things from China, but that's the way it was. Remember that Wal-Mart had just put the knife to their throat demanding further manufacturer price reductions or else. At the time, Wal-Mart represented nearly 80% of Schrades gross annual sales. Ironically, If Wal-Mart had been a country, at that time they would have figured as China's fourth largest trading partner.
IMHO, had Schrade not been driven to bankruptcy, they would now be having much more of their product made, if not assembled overseas. Likely by the same factories that now churn out product to sell to TBLLC. In fact, some of the same factories do provide the same molded handles for the Safe-T-Grip and X-Timer series that supplied Schrade. And the Nylon sheaths as well. And the boxes.
I know, I coulda/shoulda kept this to myself, but I thought you might want to know. It does pertain to manufacturing process changes that you can see by examining the knives closely. The economic and political ramifications are water under the bridge.
Codger
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2001
- Messages
- 1,634
The Wal mart option did indeed play into Schrades decision to become involved with the Yellow Devils. You may have noticed that I personally care very little about most of this junk that was produced during that period.
I truly feel one of the factors that lead to Schrades downfall was this decision. You are correct it is the same CRAP now being produced by Taylor. Schrade on its own accord did make some stupid moves that they were driven to accept, to have an account like Walmart.
While you are probably correct that if still around Schrade might be doing exactly what you have prophecised. However they are not, I prefer to think that since a handful of managment and workers has since banded together to make quality american knives that if Schrade would have survived and been allowed the time it needed to receive payment for the MILLION knives which were already sold and in some cases awaiting shipment and would have been allowed to pay off there called in note with moneys already owed them that perhapes this same managment might have realized there folly in going in the direction they were headed. Perhapes if the swing of the blade had not killed them and had simply been a close call perhapes they would have been able to recognize the intention of those they had started to deal with.
How viable is this probably not very, l, However I feel that one attempt to predict the possible future is just as viable as the other. It is as dead as JFK and to assume what they might have done is like trying to describe Kennedys forth year as a president.
However to make the statment that Chances are they would be doing the same thing as Taylor and various other companies intimates, infers, and in fact tends to give legitimacy to these practices. The fact is we know they made some mistakes which lead to there demise we do not know what Schrade would have done if they could have realized this in time. We also know that Taylor is doing this now ( as is his right ) whether you find this palatable or not is an individual call. LT
I truly feel one of the factors that lead to Schrades downfall was this decision. You are correct it is the same CRAP now being produced by Taylor. Schrade on its own accord did make some stupid moves that they were driven to accept, to have an account like Walmart.
While you are probably correct that if still around Schrade might be doing exactly what you have prophecised. However they are not, I prefer to think that since a handful of managment and workers has since banded together to make quality american knives that if Schrade would have survived and been allowed the time it needed to receive payment for the MILLION knives which were already sold and in some cases awaiting shipment and would have been allowed to pay off there called in note with moneys already owed them that perhapes this same managment might have realized there folly in going in the direction they were headed. Perhapes if the swing of the blade had not killed them and had simply been a close call perhapes they would have been able to recognize the intention of those they had started to deal with.
How viable is this probably not very, l, However I feel that one attempt to predict the possible future is just as viable as the other. It is as dead as JFK and to assume what they might have done is like trying to describe Kennedys forth year as a president.
However to make the statment that Chances are they would be doing the same thing as Taylor and various other companies intimates, infers, and in fact tends to give legitimacy to these practices. The fact is we know they made some mistakes which lead to there demise we do not know what Schrade would have done if they could have realized this in time. We also know that Taylor is doing this now ( as is his right ) whether you find this palatable or not is an individual call. LT
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2005
- Messages
- 1,771
lrv said:
I just checked the interior of a AV7, a SQ247 and a SQ586T and do not see any machining marks on any of them. The SQ586T has a liner inside as it has almost a mirror polish to it, so it may not be a good comparison. My SQ447, while not having a liner, is also highly polished. I also have a SQ423 and a SQ 316, both w/o machining marks on the side opposite the liner lock.
Not sure exactly what that means. Maybe you guys can draw a conclusion from the info.
Dale
Codger_64
Moderator
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2004
- Messages
- 62,324
The machining mark I.D. applies to the 6OTX / 7OTX only. Anodizing was likely done domestically, but shopped out, the same way many companies do with second surface finishing and milling, heat treatment, coating, plating and polishing. This explains the same colors being used on several different newer patterns. The handle blanks of the different patterns were not necessarily from the same source.
Other than the Avatar series and the late arriving Walmart SFO SQ432S Silhouette, I know of no other whole knives produced overseas (excluding the Listowel production of knives). Quite a few had both minor and major components made overseas (remember the Century knives developed to penetrate the SAK market?).
The 6OTX/7OTX designs were nothing more or and nothing less than updated versions of the 6OT, 7OT, LB7 patterns. As to the internals of the OTX knives, the parts were fine blanked (a blanking process which eleminates a lot of second process machining and finishing steps) and are the same as used in the predecessor patterns. Other than the last 75% of the scales and a few minor fasteners, the components, assembly and finish were done at Ellenville.
Outsourcing component finishing is very common in today's manufacturing environment. Schrade did this with parts made at the Irish facility before it's closure. Failure to change processes (technology, materials and designs) quickly enough to meet the evolving markets has spelled hard times, if not doom, for many small and large businesses.
Manufacturing technology has been progressing exponentially for the past twenty years. Lasers and sonics for sensing, measuring, etching and cutting, robotics going far beyond mere "pick-and-place" to assembly and finish, high tech coatings never dreamed of even ten years ago, brute force stamping being replaced by fine blanking and by injection molding of metal powders, plastics and ceramics that rival (and in some aspects surpassing) cast, extruded or stamped steel and aluminum. The list goes on and on.
Manufacturing profit margins are counted down to the 100ths of a cent. When any cost factor increases by even a slight amount (or price received for finished product), profitability of a finished product goes down. When it goes down enough, that product has to be discontinued if economically viable means are not found to restore and maintain profitability. This requires either investment in new processes, or cheapening component materials, or resourcing them to vendors who will then absorb the process change costs by using the required machines, chemicals, materials, labor force in making similar components for other industries.
I quite understand that it is hard to stand back and be objective when learning the manufacturing processes and sources that go into some of these knives. Perhaps I should have just kept my mouth shut about these details and allowed people to continue being unaware of the facts. For anyone who has not been on the inside of manufacturing in the last twenty years, none of this will make any sense. Perhaps I should just put my research (past, present and future) into hard copy and let the chips fall where they may.
Codger
Other than the Avatar series and the late arriving Walmart SFO SQ432S Silhouette, I know of no other whole knives produced overseas (excluding the Listowel production of knives). Quite a few had both minor and major components made overseas (remember the Century knives developed to penetrate the SAK market?).
The 6OTX/7OTX designs were nothing more or and nothing less than updated versions of the 6OT, 7OT, LB7 patterns. As to the internals of the OTX knives, the parts were fine blanked (a blanking process which eleminates a lot of second process machining and finishing steps) and are the same as used in the predecessor patterns. Other than the last 75% of the scales and a few minor fasteners, the components, assembly and finish were done at Ellenville.
Outsourcing component finishing is very common in today's manufacturing environment. Schrade did this with parts made at the Irish facility before it's closure. Failure to change processes (technology, materials and designs) quickly enough to meet the evolving markets has spelled hard times, if not doom, for many small and large businesses.
Manufacturing technology has been progressing exponentially for the past twenty years. Lasers and sonics for sensing, measuring, etching and cutting, robotics going far beyond mere "pick-and-place" to assembly and finish, high tech coatings never dreamed of even ten years ago, brute force stamping being replaced by fine blanking and by injection molding of metal powders, plastics and ceramics that rival (and in some aspects surpassing) cast, extruded or stamped steel and aluminum. The list goes on and on.
Manufacturing profit margins are counted down to the 100ths of a cent. When any cost factor increases by even a slight amount (or price received for finished product), profitability of a finished product goes down. When it goes down enough, that product has to be discontinued if economically viable means are not found to restore and maintain profitability. This requires either investment in new processes, or cheapening component materials, or resourcing them to vendors who will then absorb the process change costs by using the required machines, chemicals, materials, labor force in making similar components for other industries.
I quite understand that it is hard to stand back and be objective when learning the manufacturing processes and sources that go into some of these knives. Perhaps I should have just kept my mouth shut about these details and allowed people to continue being unaware of the facts. For anyone who has not been on the inside of manufacturing in the last twenty years, none of this will make any sense. Perhaps I should just put my research (past, present and future) into hard copy and let the chips fall where they may.
Codger
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2001
- Messages
- 1,634
I appreciate your opinions regarding what you feel went on and contributed to Schrades demise. I spent some time in the Schrade plant. well within the last 20 years. Having been there I did get to see first hand the production methods used. I certainly do not wish you to "keep your mouth shut" The way things are going we should enjoy our right of free speech as long as possible. I simply do not agree with your explanation of the real situation as it was.
I also feel to sit back after the fact and determine what would have happened in the future is just a bit more intuitive than I in my minimal understanding of the subject think can be done Objectively. I have only studied this subject for 50 years That includes the history ( especially in this country ) of the cutlery industry. I have researched many of these companies from there roots. I go by history and while I may not have second sight or your intelligence, acumen, knowledge or experience on the subject. I am rudimentally aware of the topic. If you can reduce to hard copy a formula for telling the future and what Schrade would have done with certainty, I would very much like to see it.
I realize that you take this study seriously I truly appreciate this since obviously I do as well. I also feel that everyone is entitled to an opinion. I also respect that. I feel that perhapes some of the sources for your conclusions are not, as you pointed out and strive for, being as objective as you may feel they are. Perhapes what you may consider as facts are really just another opinion.
The technical jargon space age names and materials will change but human nature will not and the basic tenants of these facts certainly were part of this companies down fall and apparently the downfall of many others. The fact is that these unfortunate items were only produced the last few years that Schrade was around, there position and importance to the history of this company is only worth mentioning in the context of there failure. Schrade made automatic knives for 45 years and they were the mainstay of the company if they had been allowed to continue to market these to compete with foreign imports which now illegally flood the market ( with unenforced laws on the books ) they would still be in business. Many of these space age ( Walmart inspired ) knives were made to for a large degree circumvent this fact by being designed for rapid one hand use. While not having the knowledge of some who study this subject, before several of these designs were put into production, I had been given proto types which I would take to customer shows to see what the opinion and preference of the public was. I would give these reports and then my own opinion which was usually negative.
The knives made in Ireland were from the imperial knife company. Yes the sign says IMPERIAL SCHRADE Yes the owners were the same however as has been pointed out to me they were different companies. They made a different quality and type of product.
While apparently some people are interested in stastistics I do not really care what the exact amounts of a particular model were produced snd the exact day month and year they were made especially on this newer stuff. if I need it, It can be looked up and quoted by anyone. This subject is not brain surgery ( which is why a person such as myself can write a book on it ).
If there is any way to predict the future it will come from the past the fact is that Schrade was smart enough to adapt to industrial growth, new technology, and manufacturing techniques for 100 years before being put down. Would I be over stepping my bounds to suggest that factors other than inability to financially understand the technological aspects of production had come into play.
I would be interested to read any hard copy you might wish to produce. As far as letting the chips fall where they may, they have fallen and the pot is lost, The fact is that the game is over and AMERICA lost. Now the only point left is to realize is that the game was fixed.
I truly respect everyones opinion and the time they take to give it I hope my outspoken views will be given the same accord. As they have in the past. LT
I also feel to sit back after the fact and determine what would have happened in the future is just a bit more intuitive than I in my minimal understanding of the subject think can be done Objectively. I have only studied this subject for 50 years That includes the history ( especially in this country ) of the cutlery industry. I have researched many of these companies from there roots. I go by history and while I may not have second sight or your intelligence, acumen, knowledge or experience on the subject. I am rudimentally aware of the topic. If you can reduce to hard copy a formula for telling the future and what Schrade would have done with certainty, I would very much like to see it.
I realize that you take this study seriously I truly appreciate this since obviously I do as well. I also feel that everyone is entitled to an opinion. I also respect that. I feel that perhapes some of the sources for your conclusions are not, as you pointed out and strive for, being as objective as you may feel they are. Perhapes what you may consider as facts are really just another opinion.
The technical jargon space age names and materials will change but human nature will not and the basic tenants of these facts certainly were part of this companies down fall and apparently the downfall of many others. The fact is that these unfortunate items were only produced the last few years that Schrade was around, there position and importance to the history of this company is only worth mentioning in the context of there failure. Schrade made automatic knives for 45 years and they were the mainstay of the company if they had been allowed to continue to market these to compete with foreign imports which now illegally flood the market ( with unenforced laws on the books ) they would still be in business. Many of these space age ( Walmart inspired ) knives were made to for a large degree circumvent this fact by being designed for rapid one hand use. While not having the knowledge of some who study this subject, before several of these designs were put into production, I had been given proto types which I would take to customer shows to see what the opinion and preference of the public was. I would give these reports and then my own opinion which was usually negative.
The knives made in Ireland were from the imperial knife company. Yes the sign says IMPERIAL SCHRADE Yes the owners were the same however as has been pointed out to me they were different companies. They made a different quality and type of product.
While apparently some people are interested in stastistics I do not really care what the exact amounts of a particular model were produced snd the exact day month and year they were made especially on this newer stuff. if I need it, It can be looked up and quoted by anyone. This subject is not brain surgery ( which is why a person such as myself can write a book on it ).
If there is any way to predict the future it will come from the past the fact is that Schrade was smart enough to adapt to industrial growth, new technology, and manufacturing techniques for 100 years before being put down. Would I be over stepping my bounds to suggest that factors other than inability to financially understand the technological aspects of production had come into play.
I would be interested to read any hard copy you might wish to produce. As far as letting the chips fall where they may, they have fallen and the pot is lost, The fact is that the game is over and AMERICA lost. Now the only point left is to realize is that the game was fixed.
I truly respect everyones opinion and the time they take to give it I hope my outspoken views will be given the same accord. As they have in the past. LT