Scottish Scouts told to be prepared for jail over knives

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Critter

Critter

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From the article: FOR more than a century its young recruits have been urged to “be prepared”. But now Scouts have been told they can expect to be arrested if they are found carrying a knife, even on a campsite. Read the entire article here: http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/scouts-told-to-be-prepared-for-jail-over-knives-1-2936476

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I have no words that wouldn't get me in trouble.

Thanks for fighting for us Doug, we need more like you!
 
Totally stupid and paranoid law. The knife is the oldest tool made and used by man. It dates back at least half a million years in various stone forms.
 
tatfiend said:
Totally stupid and paranoid law. The knife is the oldest tool made and used by man. It dates back at least half a million years in various stone forms.
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I'm struggling to understand the logic - if any - here: what does the age of the knife of a tool have to do with what knife laws should be??? Bubonic plague is pretty old - should people be allowed to culture it and carry test tubes of it around ("fer duck huntin'!") for that reason??? Should S30V knives be restricted more than Damascus steel ones because S30V is a newer steel?

Also, the OP does badly distort what the article actually says. It makes it sound as if carrying any knife is a crime - but this isn't true. Carrying a SAK type knife is always fine, and carrying a camp knife is fine if you need it. What the OP might not have considered is that "campsite" in the de-forested UK might not mean what he thinks - the need to use a knife while camping in the UK is pretty damn rare. When Scouts do something like fire making it will be a skills practise drill with a teacher for which knives can be issued.

...This isn't to say that UK knife laws are right or wrong. But facts are facts, and logic is logic, and whatever your position is, there is never any excuse for distortions. (Oh - and before someone starts ranting about how the UK "knife crime epidemic" shows knife control laws don't work, **the UK has fewer knife homicides per capita than the US.** And that's despite knives being used as a substitute for guns - what the UK press considers a homicide epidemic for the whole country would be an average year for some US cities. Which is not to say that UK knife laws are responsible for the difference...)
 
meanwhile said:
I'm struggling to understand the logic - if any - here: what does the age of the knife of a tool have to do with what knife laws should be??? Bubonic plague is pretty old - should people be allowed to culture it and carry test tubes of it around ("fer duck huntin'!") for that reason??? Should S30V knives be restricted more than Damascus steel ones because S30V is a newer steel?

Also, the OP does badly distort what the article actually says. It makes it sound as if carrying any knife is a crime - but this isn't true. Carrying a SAK type knife is always fine, and carrying a camp knife is fine if you need it. What the OP might not have considered is that "campsite" in the de-forested UK might not mean what he thinks - the need to use a knife while camping in the UK is pretty damn rare. When Scouts do something like fire making it will be a skills practise drill with a teacher for which knives can be issued.

...This isn't to say that UK knife laws are right or wrong. But facts are facts, and logic is logic, and whatever your position is, there is never any excuse for distortions. (Oh - and before someone starts ranting about how the UK "knife crime epidemic" shows knife control laws don't work, **the UK has fewer knife homicides per capita than the US.** And that's despite knives being used as a substitute for guns - what the UK press considers a homicide epidemic for the whole country would be an average year for some US cities. Which is not to say that UK knife laws are responsible for the difference...)
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It's pretty simple, a knife is a tool with a myriad of real world uses dating back to early man and some dumb ass politician is restricting it's use based primarily on an emotional argument. It is not like the bubonic plaque that kills indiscriminately at all.

Your argument and your analogy are lacking.

While I agree that a distortion of the facts is wrong I feel you are more upset about someone pointing out the stupidity of the law more than how it was pointed out.
 
as much as I think the idea behind the laws is disgusting, I have to agree that the article is a bit of a knee jerk reaction. This isn't about a new law, it's about a new statement the Scout organization is telling their troops due to existing laws... I'm not going to pretend to know the ins and outs of Scottish societal pressures, but I have a hard time believing an officer witnessing a lone scout doing some woodwork in a park with an "illegal" locking blade/fixed blade would make an arrest. He might, or he might tell him to put it away and not take it out of the house, or to be safe, or he might even confiscate it. Who knows?

My guess is the Scout leadership issued this memo to try and pressure the law makers to ease up on their troops a bit? Or issue a clear statement one way or the other?

And dude, you really can't compare two completely different societies' crime statistics that way. That's not the way the world works. If we had even stricter laws than the UK we'd still have much higher violence ratings than them. About the best thing you can do is compare before and after weapons bans from the same country, but even that is far from scientific. IMO the best weapons laws are laws that are VERY strict on people who commit crimes with weapons, even if the weapon stays in their pocket the whole time, while having lax laws about simply having a weapon while being a good citizen.

If you're a punk who is going to vandalize, trespass, bully, etc... and you know you'll get a few years extra in jail if you have a pocket knife on you, you might leave it at home. Meanwhile a businessman on lunch break shouldn't worry about being a felon for carrying a tool that some people use as a weapon.

my 2 cents. Support Knife Rights!
 
And it will continue as long as citizens vote in those types of politicians.
 
I am confused. This sounds like scare tactics. In the Boy Scouts of America sheath knives have always been discouraged. Most Boy Scouts carry a Swiss Army knife, which I understand to be legal in Great Britain.
 
Nothing new at all. The requirement of a "reasonable excuse" for carrying any knife has been part of UK law for over a decade.

Another good reason for Scots to vote for independence in 2014.



Those days are past now,
And in the past
they must remain,
But we can still rise now,
And be the nation again....
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Flùr na h-Alba
 
Last edited:
You can take my life... But you Cant. Take. My.....

POCKET KNIIIIFFEE!

Oh, what's that? You can take my pocket knife? Nevermind.
 
meanwhile said:
I'm struggling to understand the logic - if any - here: what does the age of the knife of a tool have to do with what knife laws should be??? Bubonic plague is pretty old - should people be allowed to culture it and carry test tubes of it around ("fer duck huntin'!") for that reason??? Should S30V knives be restricted more than Damascus steel ones because S30V is a newer steel?

Also, the OP does badly distort what the article actually says. It makes it sound as if carrying any knife is a crime - but this isn't true. Carrying a SAK type knife is always fine, and carrying a camp knife is fine if you need it. What the OP might not have considered is that "campsite" in the de-forested UK might not mean what he thinks - the need to use a knife while camping in the UK is pretty damn rare. When Scouts do something like fire making it will be a skills practise drill with a teacher for which knives can be issued.

...This isn't to say that UK knife laws are right or wrong. But facts are facts, and logic is logic, and whatever your position is, there is never any excuse for distortions. (Oh - and before someone starts ranting about how the UK "knife crime epidemic" shows knife control laws don't work, **the UK has fewer knife homicides per capita than the US.** And that's despite knives being used as a substitute for guns - what the UK press considers a homicide epidemic for the whole country would be an average year for some US cities. Which is not to say that UK knife laws are responsible for the difference...)
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Welcome to my ignore list.
 
Cardiackid said:
I am confused. This sounds like scare tactics. In the Boy Scouts of America sheath knives have always been discouraged. Most Boy Scouts carry a Swiss Army knife, which I understand to be legal in Great Britain.
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I'm interested to know this as well. Sounds like they have a slightly different method for teaching, unless like you said they are just going for scare tactics about the laws.

I don't think there's a wrong or right about learning with a slipjoint vs locking vs fixed blade. My personal opinion is a fixed blade is the most safe for learners, but the slipjoint is most likely to produce VERY controlled knife habits, which I like. If you learn how to do everything you need to do on a small, thin knife that can close on your fingers if you don't respect it, will turn you into a very economical knife users once you graduate to bigger and "better" things.
 
Cardiackid said:
I am confused. This sounds like scare tactics. In the Boy Scouts of America sheath knives have always been discouraged. Most Boy Scouts carry a Swiss Army knife, which I understand to be legal in Great Britain.
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SOME SAKs would be legal based on the linked to article. I have a recent Wenger model with a blade under 3" but with a blade lock. That would be illegal as would the larger blade model Wenger and Victorinox folding knives which have blades over 3" and locling main blades.
 
Meanwhile;

My point was that the knife is simply a tool with a long and useful history. Banning carrying or publically using it seems a bit ridiculous to me. It sounds to me like technically buying a fixed blade kitchen knife at a store and transporting it home may be illegal in GB and Scotland. The only knife laws that make any sense to me are those which make use in a crime a felony with additional mandatory sentence requirements on conviction.
 
Glasgow is the most violent city in the uk. I was there afew years ago and i felt like i was going to be killed because i didnt have a knife to defend myself with. The uk is one of the most messed up governments in europe. Id rather live in NY than anywhere in the uk
 
Cardiackid said:
I am confused. This sounds like scare tactics. In the Boy Scouts of America sheath knives have always been discouraged. Most Boy Scouts carry a Swiss Army knife, which I understand to be legal in Great Britain.
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The Boy Scouts of America stated in July, 2008, Boy's Life that a "short" fixed-blade knife was best choice for camping and was superior to, and safer than, a "folding" knife.

In 2011 The Guide to Safe Scouting was amended to recognize Scouting's duty to teach the proper use of "all legally owned knives."

The Boys Scouts of America sold sheath knives from 1921-1981 and fixed-blade knives without sheaths until very recently.

That some in Scouting are irrationally afraid of fixed-blade knives is not a reflection of current, written, B.S.A. policy.


A typical non-locking SAK is legal to carry in the UK, if you have a reasonable excuse for doing so.
 
Its because its a country of cities, and cities suck. Englands knife laws aren't that bad in themselves they're similar and (on paper) less restrictive than many european countries, but the punishments seem unnecessarily harsh and not at all understanding. Couple with the fact that anybody can be searched for no reason, without reasonable suspicion, you could end up with a criminal record and all that entails, lose your job etc. simply for carrying any locking or fixed blade even with the best of intentions.

Live in the country and you can carry what you want, enjoy lower crime, friendlier police, neighbours, etc. Not breath fume ridden air all day and enjoy the outdoors. No brainer in my head.
 
syntaxerrorsix said:
It's pretty simple, a knife is a tool with a myriad of real world uses dating back to early man
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Ok... As I already told you, hardly anyone in the UK carries anything bigger than a SAK while camping or hiking. Because in the de-forested UK that's enough to open a packet of dried food or fend one of the ferocious squirrels that might attack you. There is no "myriad of uses" for a larger knife. Really: I live here. Fire making isn't even a useful survival skill for hikers - the UK has some of the worst weather conditions for inducing hypothermia, but the risk spots are largely tree-less. I wish things were otherwise - I'd love access to the huge green spaces the US has - but this island is crowded.
 
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