Scout Knife Help

[MarkPinTx]

Thanks Phil. I'm sure it's written somewhere, but wasnt Camillus owned by Baer for a while? I guess it remained autonomous nevertheless. 300Bucks pointed out that Schrade lost the Buck contract to Camillus because of the durned keys.

 

[pinnah]

I think the spring breakage issue on the 'demo' knives is just an issue of quality of the heat treat, and perhaps a poor grade of stainless steel. I don't believe it's just a generic stainless vs. carbon steel thing. The overwhelming majority of current production knives are made with stainless springs these days (all Case Tru-Sharp knives, and Buck's entire line, among many others). Rarely do they break. Most of the production folders I've seen with broken springs are older ones with carbon springs anyway.

OWE, I think we may both be partially right on this.

My understanding of metallurgy is incomplete at best. Here's my understanding with the caveat that I could be very wrong and am very open to being corrected.

My understanding is that hardness and toughness/brittleness are different qualities. The first is the ability to resist being bent, dented or deformed. The second is the ability/susceptibility to cracking and breaking. Often, but not always, as metals get harder, they get more brittle. Further, my understanding is that, as a rule, stainless is more brittle (less tough) than carbon steels. Joe Talamadges steel FAQ is consistent with other things I've read on this issue (mostly in the context of bicycle design) when he writes:

"D-2 is much tougher than the premium stainless steels like ATS-34, but not as tough as many of the other non-stainless steels mentioned here." (The other non-stainless steels mentioned in that section of the FAQ include 10XX carbon steels.)

Lastly, it is also my understanding that repeated flex cycles can "work harden" a steel. Repeatedly bending a paperclip will cause it to a) get stiffer (harder) and b) more brittle (eventually it snaps). We see this all the time with bike spokes. Each spin of the wheel when it is ridden stretches the spoke a tiny bit. Over time, the spokes get brittle and then they start to fail. I can't imagine how a back spring of a slip joint knife can escape the same fate. I would have to believe that every open/close cycle is going to stress the spring, which could lead to eventual work hardening, getting brittle and snapping.

Now... I don't think this is absolute in the sense that I think one can select steels that, under normal operating conditions could last essentially many life-times. I have bike wheels that are 30 years old and that have never broken a spoke. There are slip joints that get passed on many generations (thank heavens for this!!!).

In any event, I do think that as a rule, stainless is more brittle and more prone to breakage than carbon. Happy to be corrected on that. I also suspect that the large number of broken carbon steel back springs that you've seen could be a result of a) a knife that has been opened and close a lot, b) poorly tempered (hardened) steel that got more brittle (we see this on brazed bike frames all the time) or c) some combination of the two.

 

[300Bucks]

I always appreciate hearing from and talking to Phil about Camillus history, the Cami Buck contract was as he said all were made with thru pin bolsters. Only the very first few Buck models were made by Schrade. All designated Buck Scout knives have been modern lockbacks, also small few in the past were offered with Scout engraving on regular models. Ususally as a service to honor Eagle scout award.

Now at this point someone is bound to wonder how do you tell what bolster I have. Well, first off if you can see a pin in the bolster then you don't have a hidden pin. But, if you can't see one you can't be sure one way or the other. Take the knife and rub it on your demin pants leg, or some other rough but non-marking cloth, get it warm, then quickly breath on the bolster to put 'fog' on the surface and in good light look for a pin outline. If you can't see it on one side, or one end, try the other. Generally, you can see the pin outline. Sometimes a magnifying glass and bright light comes in handy. After that test go to model history data.

I am not a metals person, but isn't it good policy that if two blades share a backspring not to half open both at the same time, especially on older knives ? ****Next line edited after Phil Gibbs 'recommendation' below ****- ' I use to open blades sharing one spring for photo purposes only, but after considering good information, I won't do so in the future.'
300Bucks

Heres a pin on a often opened ( ie well used) Buck/Camillus 303 from the 70s

 

[jackknife]

The problem with the military scout knives springs breaking, is not I believe related to the stainless vs carbon thing, but of heat treat and type of stainless. If stainless was not good for springs, then Ruger revolvers and sak's would not be the icons of reliability they are. I think I did read someplace a long time ago, that for some unknown awful reason, the contract for these knives called for the same stainless steel to be used for the whole knife. Blade, springs, scales, pins, shackle. If this is true, then I can only think some government bean counter who knew nothing but numbers meddled where he shouldn't. I may be in error as I can't remember just where I read that. But at my age I have trouble remembering what I had for lunch yesterday. I do know that even when I was in the service back in the 60's, the issue scout knife was known as a junker by the GI's. If there were no TL-29's available in the supply room, the much more popular knife, the soldier would just buy a sak like the Swiss issue soldier or Wenger SI. A huge step up.

Carl.

 

[Phil Gibbs]

I am not a metals person, but isn't it good policy that if two blades share a backspring not to half open both at the same time, especially on older knives ? I do it for photos only....

Should be compulsory!!!

Both blades 1/2 open on a shared spring is BAD FOR YOUR KNIFE!
I personally advise against it even for photography if possible.
One blade full open, one blade 1/2 open usually works for a photo.

 

[kamagong]

I suggest getting an older Scout. The new ones just don't compare.

You can still find them around, I got this one a few months ago.

- Christian

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Here's a quote from the book, 'Metallurgy Fundamentals' by Daniel A. Brandt and J.C. Warner (2005), page 70:

"Steel ranges from just above 0% carbon to approximately 2% carbon. Most types of cast iron contain 2% to 4% carbon. Wrought iron contains essentially no carbon. At approximately 6% carbon, the material becomes so brittle that it is relatively useless."

Point being, the one factor that influences brittleness in steel more than any other, is carbon content. Secondary to that is the quality of the heat treat.

A brittle sample of stainless steel isn't brittle simply because it's stainless. Quite the contrary, the vast majority of the time. Most stainless knife steels have lower carbon content than most non-stainless knife steels. Even so-called 'High Carbon Stainless' is defined as having around 0.4% carbon or better, which isn't very high, compared to non-stainless steels like 1095 (about 1% carbon). Stainless steels like 420HC (approximately 0.50% carbon) are extremely ductile, almost to the point that they're difficult to break at typical hardness (mid-50s RC; think about Case's Tru-Sharp, with wire edges that don't break off easily at all). Compare this to a typical non-stainless, like 1095 (around 1% carbon), which would often be used not only for blades, but for backsprings as well. Certain types of stainless that are generally more brittle, like D2 (1.5% carbon; and, incidentally, is almost not stainless at 12% chromium), aren't brittle because of their stainless qualities. They're brittle because they have much higher carbon content than many other stainless steels, AND because they're often heat treated to higher hardness extremes (to take advantage of the edge-holding properties of the higher carbon). They push the envelope in heat treat, oftentimes, with 'super steels' like those. Push just a little too far, and they break or chip. In knives especially, blades and/or springs break because the heat treat was wrong, relative to the steel's carbon content. Conversely, many of the alloying elements that contribute to corrosion resistance in stainless steels, also enhance hardenability, toughness & wear resistance, which makes them less likely to break overall (chromium, nickel and molybdenum, for example, enhance both aspects). If anything, these additional 'stainless' elements make these steels that much more durable, when properly utilized.

A perfect example of how heat treat affects brittleness (or lack thereof), and how 'stainless' qualities don't affect it:
How many times have any of us ever broken a piece of stainless kitchen flatware (butterknife, spoon, fork)? If you stress it, it bends (and stays bent, usually), but won't easily break. This is because it's not heat-treated at all (or minimally). And at the same time, it's all-the-more stainless than most of our 'real' knives, due to much higher chromium content, which literally defines how 'stainless' the steel is (anything at or above 13% chromium is the usual standard for 'stainless').

Another example: a stainless fillet knife. A knife purposely designed for both flexibility and very high corrosion resistance, it's more stainless (higher chromium) and less brittle (usually due to lower carbon content), and very flexible & springy when properly heat-treated.

An inexpensive stainless knife, presumably produced with relatively low-carbon stainless, and with springs that break, is all-the-more indicative of something very wrong with heat treat, design or steel quality. Or a combination of all three (regardless of stainless/not stainless).

 

[pinnah]

An inexpensive stainless knife, presumably produced with relatively low-carbon stainless, and with springs that break, is all-the-more indicative of something very wrong with heat treat, design or steel quality. Or a combination of all three (regardless of stainless/not stainless).

Carl,

All very helpful information.

I admit, I find this all very surprising based on my experience in dealing with bicycle parts. Stainless components are very rare compared to cr-mo and forged aluminum. One place where stainless sometimes gets used is for touring racks. Stainless mostly gets used for "artisanal" custom bikes or bikes that try to look like them but they have the reputation of being prone to breaking, especially compared to racks made from tubular cr-mo. But, as you note and I'm understanding, not all stainless is the same.

Lastly, is there any disagreement that the stainless back springs on the old demo knives were prone to breaking (regardless of the reasons)?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Lastly, is there any disagreement that the stainless back springs on the old demo knives were prone to breaking (regardless of the reasons)?

I'm still wondering about that myself. So far as I've seen, these 'demo' knives were made ONLY in stainless, and to the same single design, for a VERY long time, going back at least 30 - 40 years. Being that they were also produced for the civilian market, there had to be an awful lot of them out there (hundreds of thousands, millions maybe?). What proportion of them actually failed? And how would that rate of failure compare to failure rates of other cheap knives, produced in huge quantities over the span of decades? I haven't seen any evidence that this all-metal design was ever made in anything but stainless steel. Which raises the question if this particular design would've performed any differently in carbon steel, IF there were any of those to compare to? Compounding the question, is that many manufacturers produced this very same version. Of the samples that broke, how many manufacturers were represented in that? Maybe just one in particular, with a quality issue, perhaps? Older versions of the 'demo' knives (dating back to WWII era) with plastic/wood/bone scales might've been made with carbon steel, but those were a different design. So, did the stainless versions break because of poor steel, or because of bad design/workmanship? Even current accounts of breakage, as found on the internet anyway, are all anecdotal in nature (mostly in forum discussions like this one), with no specifics as to the time period, where the knife was obtained, how it was used (or abused), what manufacturer, etc. Even the mode of breakage, such as brittle snapping vs. gradual weakening/plastic deformation, then failing, is a question. Something as simple as how the holes were drilled in the springs, springs too thin near the hole, etc., could influence why/how they might've failed.

We hear many accounts that they broke, but there's no real proof as to specifically why, or how many, compared to the total sum of them. Way too many unanswered questions, as I see it.

 

[thatotherguy]

The Bear and son scout knife is exactly what you are looking for, but be prepared to modify it to make it usable. (they have horrendous QC, every main blade has a nick in it from the spring)

 

[heresthedeal]

a buddy of mine has used one of the kbar scout knife for years, the older ones.
he swears by it, actually uses it to get sparks to light skitogan with flint so the carbon is pretty high.
theres one on ebay right now at 29.00 and has more than a day left. i searched kbar scout knife and it popped up.