Scouters?

[Misanthropic_Gods]

This is totally bogus - but a good introduction to the nepotism and cronyism that must be faced with irritating frequency these days.

The odd thing about all this fund raising is that the scouts around here are raising money so they can hike in New Mexico. Every year we see Boy Scouts from New Mexico who have raised money so they can canoe around here. Nobody is content with the land that has been put before them and if these young men are not taught otherwise their entire lives will be fund raising events.

Wanna know a funny thing...my BSA troop was in New Mexico. I dont think we ended up in minnesota though...Big bend, Grand Canyon, Philmont (Of Course) and a bunch of other places

 

[Thomas Linton]

Wilderness Survival

Scouting did not teach survival skills as such "way back." There was no wilderness survival merit badge until 1972 - 62 years into the program. Units did not get into wilderness as often then. I know. I was Program Commissioner for a District. Haversacks hurt and our tents weighed 14 lbs (with no floor). Hence, no backpacking merit badge in the 1950's. It was happily lonely in the back country for those who went there.

What are you doing about it?

I opened a can of peaches once, and found a mouse in it.

If you are looking for an organization of human beings without imperfections, might as well give up. Doesn't exist.

A Scout Troop is as good, bad, or indifferent as the men who train, coach and mentor the boys to lead it NOW.

There are many reasons not to spend time helping boys NOW get a good experience, including a good outdoor program. Unit Scouters can be jerks or massivlely uninformed. Council and National Council bureaucrats can be officious. Lawyers can "risk-manage" any program into a mess.

I just find those reasons insufficient for me because the need is still there NOW. Men helped me have a good Scouting experience before most of you were born. Boys need men NOW to help them have a good experience.

Talk about what happened THEN vs. do something good NOW. The choice is yours.

The objective is good people and good citizens. The outdoor program is one of the means, and those with good knowledge about the outdoors are needed in our uncresingly urbanized age.

I'm old now - well, older -- but I experienced "way back." There were just as many people problems back then as there are now. You can be a solution.

Or swear off canned peaches.

 

[Misanthropic_Gods]

Wilderness Survival

Haversacks hurt and our tents weighed 14 lbs (with no floor). \

Were the the giant, green, A-Frame monsters? If so, we were still using them past Y2K. Allof them has this distinctive mold and treated canvas smell...I still remember it vividly.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Were the the giant, green, A-Frame monsters? If so, we were still using them past Y2K. Allof them has this distinctive mold and treated canvas smell...I still remember it vividly.

They were called the "Explorer tent." They had a low vertical wall around three sides. From the low sidewalls, you had a slanted triangle in the back (with a window that leaked so readily we sewed them shut), and a cropped-off slanted triangle on each side. The was a five-sided vertical, difided fro the door. It was all held up by a center pole supporting a short wooden ridge pole, tensioned by a single downguy in the front. It had no floor but a "sod cloth" from all but the front to weigh down to seal the edges (Why? No netting, just flaps to tie shut int he front). Our Troop hiking staves were the pole. We resealed them with paraffin every year (Think big candle wicks.), so they stank in the sun and gathered dirt. 14 pounds, including the ridge pole and five smallish wooden stakes, and at least 90% of the load was the indivisible tent body. Held two Scouts or three mini-Scouts.

But when we suffered our way into the center of the San Gorgonio Wilderness Area to camp at Dollar Lake, we were alone the entire weekend. Of course, no one could stand up straight for an hour or so.

 

[DaddyDett]

We used donated military shelter halves when I was a scout in Trans-Atlantic Council.
No floor, had to carry wood pole segments, weighed a ton and reeked of mildew and moth balls. BUT! They promoted team work and camaraderie with your tent-mate.

I agree with an awful lot of your notions, Thomas. Become part of the solution, not part of the problem. Alot of the issues in alot of units would be erased if folks would just do their best and use the program resources and training provided by BSA at various levels.

Mark

 

[Halworks]

I am an Eagle Scout 2002. I love scouting I hope it's around for my kids.

 

[kronckew]

...They didn't allow certain skillsets to be taught such as firemaking and knife and hatchet skills (all too dangerous, or so mommy thinks). Anything that lead to self reliance was suppressed. Citizenship had the kibosh put to it at "too extreme, we're an international community now".
...

over here, the enlightened socialist gubbermint has decided that the carriage of knives by scouts is socially inappropriate. on the odd occasion when a knife may be required, say in getting a home-makers domestic sciences merit badge in vegetarian home cookery as part of a gender de-stereotyping curricular, a parent may be requested to carry an appropriately legal knife to and from the scout meeting. of course zero tolerance regulations which require scout meetings held in schools or other government buildings now designated as knife-free zones may prohibit a actual knife. a cardboard cutout knife painted dayglo orange may in such cases be substituted with the advance permission of the school authorities. notice must be given to all parents in order to allow them to decide to withold their child from participating in any such instruction requiring inappropriate levels of violence to innocent vegetables.

along similar lines, they have also decided that any adult who regularly transports children to and from out of hours social events such as scout meetings, church, sunday school, youth football, etc. must be vetted by the government and it will be a criminal offence to transport children without documentation of passing the checks... the cost to the taxpayers £85,000,000 plus each background check will require an annual fee of £64 (about $100) payable on application or re-application, such fee being refundable at the discretion of the bureaucrat in charge if you are only transporting your own children. anyone failing the check will, in the interests of protecting their privacy, not be told why they failed. they will be placed on a national register freely available to anyone. there is no appeal.

the gubbermint minister in charge has stated that in the current economic climate this monetary expenditure is well worth it if we prevent even just one child from being harmed.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Does anyone over there realize that Orwell was writing a warning, and not a how-to?

 

[kronckew]

i do, but i'm an american. newspeak is well under way, just called political correctness. we've not yet got the internal survellance cameras inside our homes, but we're getting there. the govt. is proud that the UK has got more CCTV cameras per block in the cities than any other country.

i think the last time they bragged you would get videoed 6 times per block. it's OK to video you at work without your knowledge for 'security' reasons, as well as read your email, record your phone calls, and your internet browsing habits. it's not quite so bad in the country, tho they do have roving police vans to video events, crowds, shoppers, football matches, town meetings, protests, etc. and they have computer controlled automatic number plate recognition cameras that can record your license plate, check a database to make sure you are insured, licensed and car inspection is valid. if not they will dispatch a police car to stop you and confiscate your car, etc. they also use them to ensure you've paid your daily road use toll to drive in london, enforce parking (they can even automatically send you a ticket in the mail with no human intervention). they can track you by the use of you credit/debit cards, by your mobile cell phone, etc. as well. welcome to the real 1984.

 

[Thomas Linton]

over here, the enlightened socialist gubbermint has decided that the carriage of knives by scouts is socially inappropriate.

I was referred last week to a UK statute that is bad enough but expressly allows anyone to carry a slip joint with a blade under 3". Has that changed in the last week?

 

[Yvsa]

i do, but i'm an american. newspeak is well under way, just called political correctness. we've not yet got the internal survellance cameras inside our homes, but we're getting there. the govt. is proud that the UK has got more CCTV cameras per block in the cities than any other country.

Snipped for brevity....

they can track you by the use of you credit/debit cards, by your mobile cell phone, etc. as well. welcome to the real 1984.

Wayne I don't know how you stand it over there..... Hellfire and Damnation I'd be in trouble all the time so much so that hopefully the gubbiment wouldn't lock me up and throw away the key but simply deport me.....
Yea, like that'd happen hunh? :thumbdn: :foot:

Edit:
In order not to hijack this very interesting thread I have to say that some of my very best boyhood memories are of those few times I was able to be active in the scouts. Not that I was ever in one place long enough to get too really do anything like going camping or hiking but I got plenty of experience camping from camping with my folks. And from the time I was about eight on I pretty well had free rein in the local woods we lived in.
A bunch of us boys set up a semi-permanent camp in the woods and swampy areas behind one of the boys house when we lived in Florida back then at that time, and yup all of us boys were all scouts.


.

 

[kronckew]

I was referred last week to a UK statute that is bad enough but expressly allows anyone to carry a slip joint with a blade under 3". Has that changed in the last week?

an adult over 18 can carry a non-locking folding knife knife with an edge under 3in. without good reason. under 18 is a no-no. if you take it out of your pocket in public, you'd best have a good reason, if you threaten or scare anyone with it, it's 'possession and use of an offensive weapon'. i have a supposedly UK legal CRKT 'Edgie',

the edge is 2.75", measured from the grip the blade is 2.875", measured from the pivot its 3.25" - measured diagonally from the point to the spine at the grip it's blade is 3.125" - it's the measurement of the police officer and how bad he wants an arrest that counts, if he thinks it's over 3", you get arrested and they let the judge interpret the law when it comes to trial. the law states (1988 law):

(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.

the references later on all refer to blade length in the summary, most people do not see a difference. most police will likely think blade length and attempts to point out that your 3.25in blade has 2.75 in edge would not make the policeman happy.

if you go to a school, some of them have detector arches, and you'd best not have a knife on you unless you want to spend some time explaining the niceties of the law to an unsympathetic policeman - it is an offense to carry a knife on school property - a defence is allowed if you can prove in court that it was carried with permission of the school for educational use or needed at work there (the school cook). same on the underground (subway) and railroads, some stations are installing the detectors. at best they'll confiscate the knife and tell you you can pick it up at the police station later when you return. you of course are still liable to be arrested, have the hassle of going to court, attourneys, lost work time, etc. even if they accept your defences, which is not certain.

p.s. i had my edgie in my pocket at work, i was doing a mail shot, stuffing envelopes, etc. and opening stationary boxes with the knife, i got told by one of the girls that it was 'scary' and why did i need to carry such a big knife*.

a general summary of the law on the british knife collectors guild website: Linky

also noted there:

It's worth pointing out that in ten years of our involvement in the cutlery industry, nobody has paid us £200 for a Buck Military Model 1 and used it for an illigetimate purpose. Why would you? The majority of violent incidences involving knives feature domestic cutlery (primarily kitchen knives), or craft knives like the "Stanley"-type knife ... cheap, disposable, and so much more explainable than a Buck M1 filling your pocket!

*-the lady i 'scared' at work noted that the mail room had stanley knives i could borrow to open a box.

another, pdf file, from one of the major on-line sellers: Linky

the peanuts at the goobermint are attempting to show that they are 'tough on crime' by cracking down on 'knife crime' by teen-agers and others. it's quick sound-bite politics. random 'stop and search' is used as a tactic. as they are not allowed to 'profile' the groups that are most likely to carry illegal weapons, they are required to search a broad spectrum of additional social groups (ie. law-abiding older folk, nuns, rabbis, imams, priests, bankers) to keep the percentages politically correct. one of those statutes in the references give the police broad powers to stop and search anyone they please without a warrant, all they need is a order by a senior policeman over the rank of constable to do it 'in the belief that there is a possibility of knife crime in the area'.


p.p.s. - a link to the original article on scouting knives that irked me, LINKY

 

[Tohatchi NM]

Used to be a Scout, still am down to my boot leather, but currently inactive. That may change in the next year.

In any case, my experience was that the quality of scouting varied widely with the troop. If a Boy Scout troop doesn't get out at least 8 times per year for a weekend camp, it's doing something wrong. 10 is better, and once a month is achievable even in cold climates. Adult leadership/parent participation is vital for transportation and to keep the paperwork in order. Otherwise, they should man the coffee pot and let the youth run things. In general, the quality of a Scout's experience is directly related to the quality of the troop - if your troop stinks, find a new one (or pack, crew, post, ship, etc.). I don't see how you can avoid things like camping, woodscraft, knife skills, axemanship, etc. They're all on the road to First Class, and if you don't do those things scouts aren't going to advance and aren't going to be very happy. If your whole troop isn't doing these things, get together with one or two interested adults and adopt a patrol. Do it under the guise of "showing new scouts the ropes"

Our fundraising projects were generally tied with service activities. Doing things rather than selling stuff. Maybe we lived in a community that supported such things more than others. Not that we didn't do uncompensated service on top of that.

Some of the best, most dedicated adult leaders I encountered were female. They can stand on the sidelines just as well as the adult males. Seriously, I'm happy with female scout leaders. There are good and bad leaders regardless of gender.

Scouting does have a bit of military flavor, and military types often have the strongest association with scouting. They're sort of pre-prepped with the skills and equipment and training to get out there. Plus the DOD was a huge supporter of scouting until around 2000 - leave time for scout camp, facility support, etc. However, the BSA is not the military, nor an ROTC program. I think Scouting teaches skills that ALL citizens require - teamwork, leadership, determination, moral values, respect for the nation and it's systems. It's notable that the citizenship concept in scouting starts with the local community and expands to include the whole world. There is definitely a world brotherhood of scouting.

Regarding the UK - it's turning into a nanny state, and it sux. I feel like the US is close behind and trying to get ahead in some ways. Cameras popping up, crazy knife laws (many cities have 2.5" carry limits, as do all federal facilities. Remember to avoid the post office with your sodbuster). Liability concerns have undoubtedly limited the scope of Scouting. Best counter is to get parents on board and involved with what you're doing - then they won't be so afraid, and less likely to sue.

Scouting's not perfect, but you get out what you put in. If the local BSA isn't working for you, more power for getting your kids out there without the infrastructure. Time in the woods is almost never a bad thing.

Enough pontificating. Off to do my good turn for the day...

 

[Thomas Linton]

The general trend in the UK is pretty clear.

Opinions on the law in the UK seem to vary. Unless they changed the law recently, anyone of any age in the UK can buy and, subject to restricted areas, carry a slipjoint with a cutting edge under 3according to this site (and the British lawyer who runs it). http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8336

EXEMPTIONS:
There is an exemption order to the above, The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) (Exemption) Order 1996 which reads as follows:

Quote:
2. Section 141A(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (sale of knives or certain articles with blade or point to persons under sixteen [in Scotland. Amended to 18 in England.]) shall not apply to —

(a) a folding pocket-knife if the cutting edge of its blade does not exceed 7.62 centimeters (3 inches).

(b) razor blades permanently enclosed in a cartridge or housing where less than 2 millimeters of any blade is exposed beyond the plane which intersects the highest point of the surfaces preceding and following such blades.

This means there are no age restrictions to the sale of folding (non-locking) slipjoint knives with a blade of under 3 inches and the sale of safety razors.

If merely carrying any knife were illegal, why would the English Scouting Association merely "advise" Scouts in England not to carry a knife to and from meetings? It would be more like, "HEY!!! IT'S' AGAINST THE LAW!!!!"

The law over there does seem quite complex with definitions, redefinitions and exceptions to the definitions and redefinitions. Sorta like our Internal Revenue Code. I would imagine there is considerable confusion.

And then there's how the cop on the street views the law. Not that we have that issue here. Oh no.

Of course, bans on selling to those under 18 would make the UK like, ahh, let's see . . . Oh! Got it: eBay and lots of U.S. states and municipalities.

As for knives in schools, all around Ohio you'd be thrown out of school and arrested for carrying as much as metal pair of scissors to school, much less a KNIFE!!!!" "Zero tolerance" [zero judgment] policies and all that. This has been a boon to the plastic scissors industry.

Then we have your SAK aboard a schedule airliner.

I am note sure where logic completely prevails, but surely not in the UK - or the U.S. Just seems worse over there.

Ed: text of Order 1996: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19963064_en_1.htm

 

[kronckew]

the same forum (of which i am also a member ) has later info than the 2005 posting:

it may be legal for the under 16 year old to buy, so he wouldn't be prosecuted for doing so, but he effectively can't as it is illegal for anyone to actually sell it to him. more legal double talk and semantics at which our govt. is justly proud.

To the best of my knowledge, the age-related restrictions can be found in s 141A of the Criminal Justice Act 1998.

[HIDE]Criminal Justice Act 1998 s 141A

(1) Any person who sells to a person under the age of sixteen years an article to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or both.

(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to—

(a) any knife, knife blade or razor blade,
(b) any axe, and
(c) any other article which has a blade or which is sharply pointed and which is made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person.​

(3) This section does not apply to any article described in—

(a) section 1 of the M1 Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959,
(b) an order made under section 141(2) of this Act, or
(c) an order made by the Secretary of State under this section.​

(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) above to prove that he took all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to avoid the commission of the offence.[/HIDE]
This does not appear to indicate that there is any restriction on age in relation to manufacturing or possessing, which would be the two criteria that would concern you as a bladesmith.

With regards to selling, you would need to take all reasonable precautions and exercise all due diligence to make sure your customer is over the age of 18, or face up to 6 months in prison and a £5,000 fine. The problem is, no one is exactly sure what 'all reasonable precautions' and 'all due diligence' mean.

Edited to correct an oh-so-minor point.

Another problem for you may be the temptation to sell to friends in a similar age bracket, however well meaning and genuinely interested they may be. This would be a Bad Thing (TM) unless they are old enough. Being able to say no to a friend is a good character trait

You also need to take care when marketing, as you will be commiting an offence by marketing them in a way that '(a) indicates, or suggests, that it is suitable for combat; or (b) is otherwise likely to stimulate or encourage violent behaviour involving the use of the knife as a weapon' as per s 1 of the Knives Act 1997
. The picture that you posted does not suggest that you are going down this route so I hope this does not affect you at all.

Some restrictions on manufacture can be found in the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959.

[HIDE]Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1969

(1) Any person who manufactures, sells or hires or offers for sale or hire, [F1 or exposes or has in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire] or lends or gives to any other person—

(a) any knife which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife, sometimes known as a “flick knife” or “flick gun”; or
(b) any knife which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force and which, when released, is locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other device, sometimes known as a “gravity knife”,​

shall be guilty of an offence...[/HIDE]
So, regardless of age, there are some things that you cannot make at all.

This is just a brief summary and I've not checked over the case law (nothing springs to mind that is relevant though, Fisher v Bell situations are dealt with by the amended s1 ROWA 1969) but I am not aware of any legal reason to stop you manufacturing and selling the majority of styles of knife.

As with all legal issues, do not trust random people on a forum to give you a definitive answer. Read some of the links, ask any questions and if in doubt, seek professional legal advice.

Oh, and some pics of finished work when you have some ready to go!

there is also a thread on the scouting 'ban' on knives, seems it was a few overzealous liberal reporters making up stories.

the official scouting rebuttal is HERE

oh, and another linky, the The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 went into effect on the 1st of oct. 2007, effectively raising the age to 18 for purchase of any kind of knife. this was one reason ebay stopped selling them for people who did not have credit cards (like me at 62 yrs. old) and then later stopped selling them at all...

and the final word: the official government website: Direct.Gov.UK

 

[DaddyDett]

In the US, there isnt a BAN on fixed blade knives in Scouting, however large fixed blade knives are discouraged. That is in essence what the Scout Handbook says, and the policy on the BSA website. I still have mine and my brother's Official Boy Scout sheath knives from the 60's. I am yet to wear one with my uniform, but I have seen Scouts and Scouters in my council wear sheath knives at Camporee.
DaddyDett

 

[Thomas Linton]

In the US, there isnt a BAN on fixed blade knives in Scouting, however large fixed blade knives are discouraged. That is in essence what the Scout Handbook says, and the policy on the BSA website. I still have mine and my brother's Official Boy Scout sheath knives from the 60's. I am yet to wear one with my uniform, but I have seen Scouts and Scouters in my council wear sheath knives at Camporee.
DaddyDett

Twice in one day.

"The Boys Scouts of America does not encourage the use of large sheath knives. They cay be heavy and awkward to carry and are unnecessary for most camp shores." BSHB at p, 403 (12th ed., 2009)[emphasis added]

BSA sells fixed-blade knives with 8" blades.

Two official BSA books discuss and illustrate the use of 18"-20" Khukuries.

Many local Councils and units ban something - "sheath" or "fixed-blade."