Scrapyard Blacksmith - Materials, bladestock etc...

[69_knives]

I'm seriously contemplating building a forge and evaluating forge and burner designs and will most likely have it up and running in a couple of weekends. So, What's everybody using for raw materials to make blades with.

I see the stacks of W2 roundbar that some have and think that's great for a pro that's making money from blademaking as a main source of income.

I've seen people use leaf springs, railroad spikes, a forge welded timing chain, and even coil springs. I've read that the carbon content of RR spikes isn't that great for making blades so I'll stay away from them I think..

I kicked around the pick'n pull on Saturday and just strolled through looking for the easiest springs that I could grab, hoping somebody had already pulled them and I could just grab them. What I found was a 1962 Ford Galaxie that somebody had already pulled the axle and all I had to do was undo the retaining clips that hold the leaves together and break one bolt and they were both mine, less the top (longest) leaf. I guess about 60 -70# of 5160 steel for $21.00. I have them sitting in a vat of muriatic acid to strip the rust and clean them up.

I've learned that car axles are 4140 and are generally around an inch or more in diameter and sway bars are hardenable spring steel, ususlly at least an inch on older cars and trucks..

So, what's your source?

 

[bjalongi]

I've been using coil springs almost exclusively for about the last year or so. I also use leaf springs, buggy springs, and hay rake tines when I can get my hands on them.

Coil springs aren't as good as some steels, but its usually free, and my blades are usually very strong and hold an edge for a very long time. You can also use tie rods, although they are thick and need more hammering. Most of the auto shops in my area have metal bins out back that a steel recycling scrounger picks up once a week. I figured out that he usually comes on Wednesdays, so I try to drop in on Monday or Tuesday - they let me have all the steel I want for free. I use a mixture of preheated mineral oil and hydrolic fluid for the quench, which works well (about a 1:3 ratio), but parks quench oil would be better.

Be wary of lawnmower blades. The $50 Knife Shop book says that are excellent, but most of the lawnmower blades I've played with had a very low carbon content. They are good for guards and fixtures and stuff though.

 

[69_knives]

I will definitely check out the auto shops next time around. I think I have enough spring steel to last me well through a good learning curve, then maybe I'll try some 4140 axles. Maybe I'll even try my hand at pattern welding a motorcycle chain and see what that yelds.

I have 3/4 of a 5 gallon pail of ATF that I bought for a truck that I don't have anymore so I'll definitely be using that for quenching.

Now I need to start sourcing parts for my forge and burner. I think I'll go with a burner design from anvilfire.com and do a simple forge design using bricks for portability and versatility and weld up a frame for it to sit on. Speaking of which, there's a bed frame been sitting in the alley for about a month, I think that will make up part of my forge stand.

My first planned forge endeavor will be a 17-18" camp knife like the one Tim and Marian Lively made in their DVD, except for maybe the silver accents. http://www.livelyknives.com/knifemakingvideo.htm

 

[bjalongi]

You can plan all you want, but your first forged knife probably won't be exactly what you'd envisioned. Even to this day, there's only a few basic shapes that I can repeat, for the most part. But that's OK and part of the fun. I learn something new every time I pound out a blade.

Most days, I just start hammering with a basic style in mind, but usually stop when I think to myself, "that will be real nice after I clean it up."

 

[69_knives]

haha, well, as long as I can chop wood with it and then shave with it afterward, I'll be happy.

 

[DocsMachine]

Car axles are rarely 4140. Each manufacturer is different, of course, and older stuff will be different from newer, but it's my understanding that a common axle steel is going to be closer to 5160 than 4140.

Doc.

 

[J.Marsillo]

I think you'll find most folks on the forums are more willing to help you if you are useing a known steel.It makes a difference in one shop to the next,but heat treating steel is more of a science than an artform if you ask me.The "birth" of the blade,the concepts and design's the outstanding materials thats the artform.
Starting out I used alot of springs,cable and really whatever I could get my hands on.The sucsess to failure ratio will be discouraging but once you develop your own methods you will find things get easier(as do all things in life I guess)
I am no expert and I really still make only decent knives after 3 years of mixed dedication.Just last week I helped a kid make his fist knife...out of a file....and it cracked in the heat treat ( all the reason to buy a new temp probe)

 

[john0270]

I don't know about brick forges but I built a round body forge, 10" diameter, 12" long with 2" of insulation(pluss santanite liner) to make roughly a 8x6" chamber, openings on the front and back. I used a modified 3/4" sidearm burner, runs realy nice with 2-3psi. Round'sh chamber with offset burner makes it heat realy evenly, especialy at low temps for heat treating. For heat treating longer blades I use a 'strap on' lol, just a 6" diameter 8" long for the rear and a 6" long front, both have one layer of 1" insulation. With just the 8" strap on it brings 18" of steel up to temp realy nicely.

Start small, figure out how this particular steel behaves first. Scrap spring steel can be a crap shoot, it may be 5160(heat treats well with atf), or 1060, I have heard some even being 1095. With scrap spring steel you should develop a set of comparative tests for different batches.

Also I have acquired free about 30# of what is suppose to be 52100, Large bearing races from agricultural gear boxes, one weighing in at over 3lbs. But I need to reach perfection with spring steel first before I try using 52100. The same goes for larger blades, if you don't have to heat treating and geometry right than its not going to preform, and the learning curve isnt as painfull with 3 or 4" of steel vs 20.

Best of luck!

 

[69_knives]

Good advice.

I will do a test harden and temper to see what results I come up with.

Got most of the burner parts, now to source some fire brick and a 40# propane tank.

 

[bjalongi]

Car axles are rarely 4140. Each manufacturer is different, of course, and older stuff will be different from newer, but it's my understanding that a common axle steel is going to be closer to 5160 than 4140.

Doc.

Even better, I really like 5160.

 

[Phil Dwyer]

Hi Friend,

Welcome to the forums! Sounds like you're gonna give it a go and are starting out kind of like a lot of us did. I was given about a half ton of hefty leaf springs this summer. (One set of laminated bars weighs in at well over hundred pounds.) Have quite a bit of coil spring too in various diameters. It turns out though, that I'm not really making blades of the stuff though. Have made a number of chisels and hot cuts though. If they fail it probably won't matter too much as they're my own tools used in my shop, so I can deal with rectifying problems pretty much on the spot.

Knives are a different matter. They need to function away from my shop, whether for me or someone else. That means I want to develop the best blades I can. The more I know about the steel alloy I'm using (that includes actually really knowing what alloy it is) and the more I know what are the best processes to work that alloy (especially forging and heat treating temperatures and methods) the more likely I'll success. At least that's my theory. I'm also taking some high school students beyond the old railroad spike knife project (which they loved, who wouldn't?) to a real knife project. We'll be working with 5160, mostly because it's a good, fairly easy alloy to work and fairly easy to source and afford. I'd prefer 1084 as it's even easier, but it's a bit harder to find in dimensions we want and can afford.

Personally, I also enjoy striving at joining the fraternity of knife makers, most of whom use specific, although various, known steel alloys.

All this being said, there's something about "recycling" found metal that is really fun. I'm about to try my hand at some bolos (machetes) from some of that leaf spring material. It's going to be some work though. The stock is nearly 1/2" think and a couple inches wide. I'll whittle it down with a cutting torch into 1" wide strips first though. I'll also be making about 10 sets of some basic stone carving chisels (from coil spring) with some high school practical art students next semester. Should be fun.

Oh ya, we're using solid fuel coke forges (I built) with hand crank blowers from eBay. I've put together a forced air propane forge (with fellow forumite, Indian George) but the dragon's breath is a bit much to handle with the students. I have both Parks 50 (from Indian George) and peanut oils for two different speed quenches. For HT I have a lost wax jewelry making burnout kiln (from another forumite, Stacy Apelt) and your basic toaster oven with a firebrick added to help stabalize the temperature.

All the best with your endevours, Phil