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- Thread starter dartanyon
- Start date
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- May 10, 2002
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- 705
baldtaco-II
Look, volunteers have lives outside of their community work and the less undesirable work could be relieved by profiteers. Doesnt need to go any deeper than that.
As for your comment ... "if you can't hack it get the hell out of public life" ... A bit over the top ... ya recon?
Look, volunteers have lives outside of their community work and the less undesirable work could be relieved by profiteers. Doesnt need to go any deeper than that.
As for your comment ... "if you can't hack it get the hell out of public life" ... A bit over the top ... ya recon?
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- Feb 28, 2006
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dartanyon
I don't grasp what you are saying there. It may be because it begins with look, it may be because it is 04.57 and I haven't slept. I'll decide that later.
"if you can't hack it get the hell out of public life" ... A bit over the top ... ya recon?
Mate that's dilute. The full version I'd deliver to a whinging politician is a good deal more direct than that.
I don't grasp what you are saying there. It may be because it begins with look, it may be because it is 04.57 and I haven't slept. I'll decide that later.
"if you can't hack it get the hell out of public life" ... A bit over the top ... ya recon?
Mate that's dilute. The full version I'd deliver to a whinging politician is a good deal more direct than that.
- Joined
- May 10, 2002
- Messages
- 705
baldtaco
I was trying to keep it simple ... the "look" bit quacks like a duck. "Look" at the big picture (its an aussie way of identifying a simple theme). Sometimes I may be a little cryptic but I do try to keep it simple.
Comparing front line essential services to whinging politicians is simply insulting.
Your post albeit "diluted" was detrimental to services driven by passion rather than politics.
I was trying to keep it simple ... the "look" bit quacks like a duck. "Look" at the big picture (its an aussie way of identifying a simple theme). Sometimes I may be a little cryptic but I do try to keep it simple.
Comparing front line essential services to whinging politicians is simply insulting.
Your post albeit "diluted" was detrimental to services driven by passion rather than politics.
- Joined
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dartanyon, g'day
To my mind that depends on how we are comparing them. I am using the single feature volitional behavior to compare them all.
The usefulness of using political whingers as examples inheres in the fact that they span both the paid and unpaid groups. As such they make for a great target for me to illustrate the point that whether you are doing a job of work paid or unpaid you have choice. It is totally under your free will. It isn't like a bloke that is forced to drag the toilet cart through the streets of Bombay. If you no longer enjoy the work simply leave, you will be replaced.
What really galls me is that people seem to believe that because they volunteer they have extra moaning rights not afforded to the paid worker because they are donating something. If anything I see the direction the other way round because the volunteer has less to lose if they quit.
My position is that even the paid worker usually has very little ground for moaning let alone the volunteer. Take for example the specialist that performs very late term abortions stomach churning for sure, but if it starts to get to her she shouldn't bitch about it, just change her career path. Similarly, the last time I did voluntary work it was helping train people that work with abused dogs. I was on a fine line with that one. Cruelty to dogs is something I'm so passionately hostile to I will throw considerable resources at having offenders treated. If I couldn't find some way to hold that in my mind without it affecting me privately I should not have been exposing myself to that work. In common with the medic being paid to do the late abortions I am not bound to it. It's not like being in the military, getting shafted, and having to wait while you buy your way out. It's all free choice. And in all candor I think it takes something of a god complex when a person doesn't believe another could easily fill their shoes if they quit and they aren't as replaceable as piston rods.
I think the last component for me is humility. There seems to be something about some groups that volunteer that drains every last bit of humility from them but not other groups. The R.N.L.I here come across as quite a humble but worthy bunch, as do the mountain rescue mob that often operate in conjunction with the R.A.F. Others don't. I think I've seen enough contributions from those that claim SAR credentials to know that some of them seem to think it is an immutable rank they hold over others. And that immutable rank gives them carte blanche. Again, they strike me as confused as the politician that whinges, whether that be the amateur, the professional, or some gray area of perks between the two.
The point is, I find similarity between all these things because you are free to choose it, or to choose not to do it. I think that gets obscured because to many people political life is safe and drone whereas mountain rescue is noble and dangerous. That's silly. I can't recall an account of mountain rescue personnel being in genuine peril. If the rescue guy going down a hole to drag out a stuck potholer felt he could come to some harm then he is most certainly on the wrong team. Statistically I guess that Lollipop Ladies and Traffic Vultures run many times the risk to their persons than any of these high profile rescue teams, yet them seem to suck it up quietly or quit. That's humility.
I'll finish my contribution to this thread by touching on simply insulting:
Feeling insulted and being deliberately insulted aren't the same. You asked for your thoughts please and these are mine. I figure when you ask a question like that you must be prepared for all responses regardless of how uncomfortable they may make you. I find common ground between all the things I've mentioned because of the freedom to choose. I can't find any reasonable way out of that despite any discomfort. If that discomfort comes as an affront to your sensibilities there is nothing I'm willing to do about that, because I can't bend the facts to accommodate you. Hopefully though it is clear that I'm not trying to insult you personally or hurt your feelings. I have no reason to. We've never spoken before and for all I know you could be one of the finest people I could hope to meet.
Anyway, nuff now.
To my mind that depends on how we are comparing them. I am using the single feature volitional behavior to compare them all.
The usefulness of using political whingers as examples inheres in the fact that they span both the paid and unpaid groups. As such they make for a great target for me to illustrate the point that whether you are doing a job of work paid or unpaid you have choice. It is totally under your free will. It isn't like a bloke that is forced to drag the toilet cart through the streets of Bombay. If you no longer enjoy the work simply leave, you will be replaced.
What really galls me is that people seem to believe that because they volunteer they have extra moaning rights not afforded to the paid worker because they are donating something. If anything I see the direction the other way round because the volunteer has less to lose if they quit.
My position is that even the paid worker usually has very little ground for moaning let alone the volunteer. Take for example the specialist that performs very late term abortions stomach churning for sure, but if it starts to get to her she shouldn't bitch about it, just change her career path. Similarly, the last time I did voluntary work it was helping train people that work with abused dogs. I was on a fine line with that one. Cruelty to dogs is something I'm so passionately hostile to I will throw considerable resources at having offenders treated. If I couldn't find some way to hold that in my mind without it affecting me privately I should not have been exposing myself to that work. In common with the medic being paid to do the late abortions I am not bound to it. It's not like being in the military, getting shafted, and having to wait while you buy your way out. It's all free choice. And in all candor I think it takes something of a god complex when a person doesn't believe another could easily fill their shoes if they quit and they aren't as replaceable as piston rods.
I think the last component for me is humility. There seems to be something about some groups that volunteer that drains every last bit of humility from them but not other groups. The R.N.L.I here come across as quite a humble but worthy bunch, as do the mountain rescue mob that often operate in conjunction with the R.A.F. Others don't. I think I've seen enough contributions from those that claim SAR credentials to know that some of them seem to think it is an immutable rank they hold over others. And that immutable rank gives them carte blanche. Again, they strike me as confused as the politician that whinges, whether that be the amateur, the professional, or some gray area of perks between the two.
The point is, I find similarity between all these things because you are free to choose it, or to choose not to do it. I think that gets obscured because to many people political life is safe and drone whereas mountain rescue is noble and dangerous. That's silly. I can't recall an account of mountain rescue personnel being in genuine peril. If the rescue guy going down a hole to drag out a stuck potholer felt he could come to some harm then he is most certainly on the wrong team. Statistically I guess that Lollipop Ladies and Traffic Vultures run many times the risk to their persons than any of these high profile rescue teams, yet them seem to suck it up quietly or quit. That's humility.
I'll finish my contribution to this thread by touching on simply insulting:
Feeling insulted and being deliberately insulted aren't the same. You asked for your thoughts please and these are mine. I figure when you ask a question like that you must be prepared for all responses regardless of how uncomfortable they may make you. I find common ground between all the things I've mentioned because of the freedom to choose. I can't find any reasonable way out of that despite any discomfort. If that discomfort comes as an affront to your sensibilities there is nothing I'm willing to do about that, because I can't bend the facts to accommodate you. Hopefully though it is clear that I'm not trying to insult you personally or hurt your feelings. I have no reason to. We've never spoken before and for all I know you could be one of the finest people I could hope to meet.
Anyway, nuff now.
- Joined
- May 10, 2002
- Messages
- 705
baldtacoII, hey
So we disagree.
Volunteers and professionals are financially separate.
Lives and time are precious and people are not pawns no matter what their task in a search and rescue mission.
Showing gratitude by sharing profits to the volunteered bones that saved their breeches in a rescue situation is my view. Profit from good will requires a balance.
Regards, Dave
So we disagree.
Volunteers and professionals are financially separate.
Lives and time are precious and people are not pawns no matter what their task in a search and rescue mission.
Showing gratitude by sharing profits to the volunteered bones that saved their breeches in a rescue situation is my view. Profit from good will requires a balance.
Regards, Dave
Emergency services workers who have been there done that are as a group the most jaded individuals I have ever met, professional or volunteer it makes no difference (some exceptions do exist, usually newbie's). Dr's nurses, cops, fire etc... are all part of this group dealing with stress and situations the rest of the population experiences through 60 min television.
So to armchair experts dont judge, get off the computer roll up the belly into a pair of pants and do it. Seems there are some that know it all without doing it. So do it, experience it for a decade and then come talk.
Until that time take what I and a few others around here say as a professional therapy session nothing more.
I have to sleep now because in the morning I'm going to look for a missing 4 month old in a seedy section of town suspected of being dumped by her crackhead mother:thumbup:
Skam
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2006
- Messages
- 1,067
I find no problem with reminding people who I have volunteered to help that I am part of a volunteer organization. In my volunteer EMS/Rescue organization sends letters to home addresses of all patients the following month (some exceptions may apply) we send a survey about our service and a reminder for a donation. Our donations are way up since we started this practice.
In NJ we have a state volunteer training fund that funded by a .50$ fee attached to speeding tickets, before our jackass governor stole the money, it funded training for volunteer EMTs
As for hoax rescues, I wonder If you were referring to the couple who claimed to have been left behind while diving, shortly after a movie with the same plot came out. These folks have sued and were writing a book but things seem a bit shady
In NJ we have a state volunteer training fund that funded by a .50$ fee attached to speeding tickets, before our jackass governor stole the money, it funded training for volunteer EMTs
As for hoax rescues, I wonder If you were referring to the couple who claimed to have been left behind while diving, shortly after a movie with the same plot came out. These folks have sued and were writing a book but things seem a bit shady
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- Dec 16, 2008
- Messages
- 916
A bit subjective when the "volunteer" decides who is an "idiot" and should donate money, don't ya think?
When I "volunteer" to do something, whether helping a buddy move a piano, changing someones flat tire, or looking for a lost child or elderly person, I do not ask for reimbursement or "donations"
Because I am a VOLUNTEER.
If you expect payment of any kind, whether personal or for "the team" you cross the line of volunteerism. Volunteers are UNPAID. If you don't like that, go join a paid rescue team.
Jeesh! Have we lost all semblance of Christian/religious values and brotherly compassion.
Again this subject has come up and you " Professional Volunteers" are using terms like "dickheads", "idiots". And continue your incessant whining that you get "No respect" and we should belly up and do it for a decade then talk to you. I don't need to do it for one minute to know what kind of job it is and it is blatantly apparent you are unfit for what you do, not because you can't perform a rescue, because you have become arrogant and have become biased and bitter over the rescues you perform.
I can say this, if my wife or child was in harms way and the SAR guy pushed them for a donation during the time of need, the "volunteer" would be the one needing rescue when I found out.
When I "volunteer" to do something, whether helping a buddy move a piano, changing someones flat tire, or looking for a lost child or elderly person, I do not ask for reimbursement or "donations"
Because I am a VOLUNTEER.
If you expect payment of any kind, whether personal or for "the team" you cross the line of volunteerism. Volunteers are UNPAID. If you don't like that, go join a paid rescue team.
Jeesh! Have we lost all semblance of Christian/religious values and brotherly compassion.
Again this subject has come up and you " Professional Volunteers" are using terms like "dickheads", "idiots". And continue your incessant whining that you get "No respect" and we should belly up and do it for a decade then talk to you. I don't need to do it for one minute to know what kind of job it is and it is blatantly apparent you are unfit for what you do, not because you can't perform a rescue, because you have become arrogant and have become biased and bitter over the rescues you perform.
I can say this, if my wife or child was in harms way and the SAR guy pushed them for a donation during the time of need, the "volunteer" would be the one needing rescue when I found out.
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- Sep 23, 2008
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- 1,928
I can understand that.
I dont' want my family to remember me as a bed ridden, mute husk of what I was.
I want my kids left with the thought that dad is out in his woods chasing whatever lies over the next ridge. :thumbup:
...and I'm 30 btw (not to sound braggadocious or whippersnapperish...just letting you know that sometimes that thought comes a little earlier than North on RT.60
)I think I get the premise of the OP's ire: Guy gets lost. SAR finds guy. Guy sells story for big bucks. Guy does not donate to SAR/related institutions.
I think it'd be good ju-ju to donate to the guys who found you. But I don't think anyone should be made to feel it is an obligation to do so.
As for the guy who donated 1500 out his 200k profit...he could have donated zilch. Atleast he did donate something as a "thank you".
However, getting into SAR for the donations is like getting into the military for the glory...
Reading comprehension is not your strong point.
Instead of lifiting pianos how about giving your time to the community? How about over 1000 hrs a year. Dont bitch, do man.
It is just venting frustration nothing more so chill dude.
Where do you live Primitive? I would be happy to make a call on your behalf to your local SAR team and let them know you are coming.
After I put myself in harms way for your spawn, if I think its appropriate I will sure as hell mention we take donations! Donations to keep the base lights on or put gas in the teams tanks or replace used medical kit items. Most SAR ops fund their entire organization through donations. Its not for my gain man, its for the next person.
If you want to through down over that then take your best shot.:yawn:
You are being rediculous. Or trolling?
Skam
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2008
- Messages
- 916
Beautiful. I've got 800 posts and you are accusing me of trolling and throw an insult because I disagree with you.
I don't want to "throw down" over anything, but calling someone you need to rescue a "dickhead" and squeezing them for donations shows your true colors.
Let me ask you, out of the 1,000 hrs a year that you donate, there is like 990 hrs you spend bitchin about the 10 you actually rescued an "idiot", right?
I have said it in other related threads and I will say it again, if you start acting with respect and posting some positive stories of you SAR encounters it would go a lot further than beating your chest, saying "you don't know what we go through with these idiots" for EVERY SINGLE rescue thread. You are just a little too ready to pat yourself on the back for me to take serious.
BTW, I think there are several here that understand just what I give to my community and the depth of my integrity by my location, not that I would expect you to have a clue.
So go for it man, vent away, I'm OUT.
ps if you are going to critique my reading comprehension, at least learn to spell "rediculous"
I don't want to "throw down" over anything, but calling someone you need to rescue a "dickhead" and squeezing them for donations shows your true colors.
Let me ask you, out of the 1,000 hrs a year that you donate, there is like 990 hrs you spend bitchin about the 10 you actually rescued an "idiot", right?
I have said it in other related threads and I will say it again, if you start acting with respect and posting some positive stories of you SAR encounters it would go a lot further than beating your chest, saying "you don't know what we go through with these idiots" for EVERY SINGLE rescue thread. You are just a little too ready to pat yourself on the back for me to take serious.
BTW, I think there are several here that understand just what I give to my community and the depth of my integrity by my location, not that I would expect you to have a clue.
So go for it man, vent away, I'm OUT.
ps if you are going to critique my reading comprehension, at least learn to spell "rediculous"
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I never thought that there would come a thread where I even remotely agree with PrimitiveMan. That day has come. Skam, if how you act on this forum is how you act with rescues, then you seriously should consider counseling or a break. This is not a slight towards you by any means. I have done the VFF thing, so I sympathize with being pissed off at stupid calls. However, stuff happens and people cannot always control their situation. I have been on fire calls before, plenty of them, and I can assure you that the last thing on our volunteer crew's mind was to hassle the victim for donations. Thing is, they remember. We pulled a kid from a car that flipped over in a creek one time. When we were doing our Boot drive, his dad gave us a very nice check. We didn't have to hassle him, we didn't remind him that his son shouldn't have been texting while driving, nothing. We simply did our thankless job and went back to the house. In the house, yes we bitch. That is where it should stay. Our job can suck, but we NEVER take that out to others. We NEVER let those emotions affect how we do our work. Now, you seem to have a ton of experience, but you should really take a minute to look at what you type before you hit 'submit.' How many people do you honestly think would give money to a SAR or any volunteer organization if they heard how you talk about them?
First off, you don’t know me and you certainly don’t know how I act in a SAR op.
- I am a consummate professional and don’t ever act otherwise in front of patients.
- I never patted myself on the back ever, again reading comprehension.
- I don’t know you or your integrity in your community, this is the internet and one can say anything when the truth is different. Like you the people that matter know what I am all about.
- Some appreciate what the other side is thinking and learn from it, the fact you don’t means nothing to me.
-You "don’t" know what we go through with some people so comment on what you know. I dont comment on topics I don’t know. Want to criticize join a team.
- I got slapped for the d$#%$head comment, was it appropriate? No, but its the truth. How long you going to hang your hat on that one?
- Its only been the past few weeks I decided to vent some EMT, SAR issues and let others know how it feels from my side 2200 posts vs 20.
- Again for last time I am not squeezing them for donations, if it’s appropriate donations are mentioned as its a non for profit service like VFF and other volunteer community services etc... It survives on donations and fundraising alone. The alternative is to have nobody look for lost people or untrained people who haven’t a clue. I think its appropriate to tactfully mention teams take donations and that we are unpaid as many think we are funded and draw a salary. I don’t understand why you have a problem with this.
-I don’t bitch I am too busy pounding ground on the lost persons behalf.
- Thanks for the spelling lesson much appreciated.
Skam
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2008
- Messages
- 916
No, I am good with this.
Keep venting. Good for the soul.
You are definitely proving your point. I am almost converted to your way of thinking. Just give me a little more of your philosophy on the subject and I will be convinced.
Give me some more about you being the "consummate professional" and tell me again how you are "too busy pounding ground on the lost persons behalf" because that is what selfless people do.
Holy crap, will you marry me?
Really Skam, I think I love you. I didn't see it before but now I know. You ARE the man!
Keep venting. Good for the soul.
You are definitely proving your point. I am almost converted to your way of thinking. Just give me a little more of your philosophy on the subject and I will be convinced.
Give me some more about you being the "consummate professional" and tell me again how you are "too busy pounding ground on the lost persons behalf" because that is what selfless people do.
Holy crap, will you marry me?
Really Skam, I think I love you. I didn't see it before but now I know. You ARE the man!
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2008
- Messages
- 1,928
Both of you need to take a breath and step away.
It's nearly impossible to discern tone from the written word.
You're getting into an emotion driven argument and losing sight of discussion.
It's not going to do anything but get the thread shut down and maybe a ding against the both of you.
Agree to disagree and move along.
Then again you're free to ignore those of us who are giving this advice until one of the mods decides to step in.
Your call.
Civility gents, civility.
It's nearly impossible to discern tone from the written word.
You're getting into an emotion driven argument and losing sight of discussion.
It's not going to do anything but get the thread shut down and maybe a ding against the both of you.
Agree to disagree and move along.
Then again you're free to ignore those of us who are giving this advice until one of the mods decides to step in.
Your call.
Civility gents, civility.
Esav Benyamin
MidniteSuperMod
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2000
- Messages
- 90,915
Good advice. Rarely taken.
So how do I do this?
DO I shut down the thread, which has gotten to be a very personal, very insulting exchange mostly between two members? Do I pick my way through pages laced with this bitter exchange?
If you haven't made your points by now, your debating skills aren't up to it. Leave now and spare us all the grief.
I will be back to lock the thread if it doesn't stop.
Infractions will be awarded if I need to do this.