Search and stickies read. Grinder, bench, and material questions plz.

J

Jamesh Bond

Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
1,760
Hey all.

Been lurking around for years, slowly accumulating knowledge. There is a LOT to take in, and I've barely scratched the surface.

I finally have a garage and budget to start what I've always wanted. Making knives. I'm after serious hobby, not getting rich, but I do intend to sell my work at minor cost to pay for the hobby. Planning to make fixed blades in the 6" to 12" inch range, starting out small and thin. Paracord and slab handles until I acquire some skill.

I'm asking some common questions in hopes if confirming or denying some ideas I already have. I'm aware that information changes fast nowadays, so I'm after the freshest I can get. I'll try to keep it brief, as I'm aware you guys must be sick of telling us newbs the same thing over and over. Hopefully my questions come from a little different place.

Please keep in mind I have spent a lot of time educating myself with the resources here, and elsewhere, for several years now. I'm not asking this stuff ignorantly.

I appreciate your time in advance. Im bracing for inevitable scoldings too, lol!

Here's the briefness of it:

- I have $1300 to work with. Now.

Yep. I know....

But the suggestion to save up for better is not an option in this particular thread. Period.

I have a lot to juggle, but if I can spend wisely on the main equipment, some creativity and luck will get me the rest of the way.

Okay here goes.

- My biggest needs to start with are bench, grinder, clamps, drill press, vice, files, materials, and HT equipment, of the top of my head. I am still in process of juggling searches, but I listed for your reference, if needed. I know there's plenty more I'll need! So bench grinder, drill press, and bench are gonna be the main cost I reckon.

Having said all that, I realize the majority of my budget will go to a grinder. I'd like to get a 2x72 and be done with it. There are some really nice ones out there, but budget in mind, I've looked at the Coote and Grizzly. I'm fine with them being only 2 wheels, as I like the ability to use the contact wheel. The fancier ones don't wome with an obvious way to do that. Please correct me if I'm missing something.

First question:
GRINDER

- I am pretty much settled on the Grizzly, as it costs the least. But it doesn't seem like the motor can be upgraded later. Is this going to be a problem?

- If I get the least expensive Coote (would prefer larger contact wheel tho), where are some inexpensive sources for good motors?

- Are there any other suitable 2x72's out there for less? I haven't found anything!

- Would a Gamut 1x42 (1/2 hp), or 2x48 (1/3hp) be suitable in the meantime if I DID decide to save? What is the most ideal smaller grinder if a 2x72 just won't work?

If anyone believes a beginner/hobbyist like me doesn't need that much machine, please advise accordingly.

I am lightly considering the smaller Grizzly and Gamut 1x42 or 2x48 machines, but I have a feeling I'd regret it later. The flip side is that they are a third the cost of a 2x72, so it would actually be a relief if someone told me they'd be fine for hobbyist needs until I do save up for better stuff.

What sucks is that I'm aware one can build a grinder pretty easy. But I have no tools, no welding or metal fabrication skills, and again, not much extra time on my hands. I'd rather my building time be spent on knives as much as possible.

Next question.
WORK BENCH

- I need the absolute cheapest possible work bench. Yes I'm aware of what I just said, and I'm aware that one gets what they pay for. It sickens me to say "cheap," fully understanding what I'm asking. I am a firm fan of "buy once, cry once." But I also work hard for a living and don't have a lot of extra resources. So creativity is necessary. Anyway, I'm googling away, but there are several pre made options out there that look like they might work if I reinforce and weight them.

Please give me some workbench ideas on the cheap. Any pre-made ones out there that night work??

DIY is a consideration too, but I have very little time, tools, or experience. But if it sames a ton, I'm all for it.

Last question.
BLADE STOCK

- I'm planning on heat treating myself, with torch/brick "forge" and toaster oven or kiln. Still researching the ideal way to get there.

Therefore I'd like to start with annealed 1084, to make it easy to work with.

What would be some of the most economical ways to obtain some annealed 1/8" and 3/16" stock?
(I assume annealed given its easy grindability plz correct me if I should use something else).

So that's my start. To repeat, I asked this after a lot of research, but fully know there is tons I don't know. Forgive the somewhat stern tone if it came across that way. I just wanted to be specific and clear on some things.

I honestly hope to hear a 2x42 will work, and that a Walmart workbench with a piece of granite or glass on top is just fine if I find some weight for the bottom! But I have my doubts.

I also understand that with this budget, my aspirations may be a pipe dream. Again, I won't bother explaining, but the "wait & save up" answer is not what I'm after here. "Here are some options" or else "just use files" is much more helpful!

I have a feeling I will learn more than I bargained for! Looking forward to your education.

I highly appreciate ya'll's time and patience taken to read this.

Thank you very much in advance!
 
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Workbench:


Here's the first vid of a short series I did on a very cheap and sturdy workbench. I've built a couple of them, and they work quite well. Total cost is around $100 if I remember right. It can be done a little cheaper if you frame it a little differently, but this will get you a very solid stand alone bench with minimal cuts and rips. The dimensions can be adjusted to your preferences pretty easily as well. You can also anchor the back of it to a shop wall or anchor it to the floor if you'd like it even sturdier. I've got one in the middle of my shop loaded up with several hundred lbs of tools, and it's still rock solid.

Grinder:
As for the Grizzly, I think there are better options for around the same money, or at least a little more, especially if you're only looking for a single speed machine. I do think a VFD upgrade (or at least the future capability) is well worth the investment though, and the Grizzly does not have that option.

There have been several relatively recent threads going over options around that price range. Polar Bear Forge has some SLING kits that can likely be built for the same money or less. Their GIB (or EERF) design is a tried and true option (though price will increase depending on how you build it). If you're looking for more turn key machines, Origin Blade Maker has some decent offerings, and there have been countless others popping up on eBay and Etsy for a little more than the Grizzly, but with tool arm and motor upgrade capabilities. Chinese contact wheels are getting better and cheaper all the time, though a flat platen will be your cheapest option to start. Motors can be found on craigslist, ebay, surplus and motor repair shops, etc... for anywhere from $20 to $200. You just have to know what you're looking for.

All that said, at the end of the day, a tool is only as good as it's user, and the Grizzlies, Cootes, Craftsmans, Harbor Freights etc... in all shapes and sizes CAN be used to make a decent knife. Yes, the learning curve is dramatically reduced with a quality 2x72, IMO, but they're all just tools at the end of the day. Buy the best you can afford and start making sparks. Lot of makers got started on the Grizzly or the Coote.

Blade Steel:
Lot's of guys try to "save money" by using found or recycled steel like old files, saw blades, planer blades, etc... without really factoring in the extra time, tools, and materials that it takes to process what may amount to be less than stellar steel to begin with. That old mystery steel saw blade might have been free, but the 12 drill bits and 17 hack saw blades you ruined in order to get it into the shape of a knife cost about as much as a 4 feet of 1084 from the New Jersey Steel Baron, or Alpha Knife Supply, which will only require one drill bit and one saw blade to cut. Spend the $20 to $30 on a piece of quality carbon steel and save yourself from wanting to quit before you start.

On a similar note, don't be afraid to send a blade out for heat treat. Our own JTknives does a really good job for very reasonable prices last I checked. If you have a local smith in your vicinity, you could probably talk them into a heat treat for the cost of a beer or two. Fill out your profile, or let us know a little bit more about your background, where you're from, etc..., and we may be able to give you a little better advice.
 
Harbor Freight has cheap work benches, and they always have sales.
There is no motor upgrade for a Grizzly 2 X 72, but it's a very good entry level grinder, and it has a buffer. The Coote can be upgraded to variable speed.
 
Hi, I was in your shoes a few years ago. There is so much to think about and figure out that it can be a bit overwhelming. Also, you won't know what really works for you until you are a few knives in. I'll offer a few thoughts:

Find a buddy! Use their shop as you get started. Where are you located?

People think knives are made of steel and G10. Nope, they are made of sandpaper. You will spend as much on belts and sandpaper as you will on an inexpensive grinder.

Buy a bubble jig. It will really help you as you get started. I use my home-built version on every knife I make.

I started with a Flat SLING grinder set up with plastic wheels from OBM. It still works fine. I scrounged up the motor, hardware, and enclosure and made it VFD driven. Even though the grinder was cheap, it still nickle-and -dimed me. I had to run 220v to the garage, buy hardware, etc.

It took me about $1500 to make my first 5 knives and about $500-600 to make the next 20. It took me about 25 knives before I had made something I would sell.

Learn to say "I have not yet learned" instead of "I can't"! It will be very hard at first and you will probably question your abilities. But every new knife you make will be better then the last!
 
if you want to wait a couple months, wait for Wilmont LB1000 when they start production again. https://www.wilmontgrinder.com/lb1000 couple this with your motor/vfd and you have an excellent grinder. expect to pay about $1200 for grinder, motor, VFD, and extras. once you have that, $100 or so for drill press, $50+ for right angle angle grinder to cut with. that should do basics.












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what city do you live in?
all my workbenches are with heavy thick butcher block tops for about $100 each,
craigslist or machinery moving or auction houses
 
Also, put aside $120 or so for a carbide faced file guide. The list of small tools and hardware that you will ultimately need or want will be endless but the file guide will be important. Like Bamph said, leave some budget for abrasives. You will go through a lot of it.
 
Some good advice has been given above - especially "where are you located"? Fill your profile out with location, somebody just might be close to you that can help. If you're in the Mobile, AL area you're more than welcome to swing by here.

If you were planning to do some forging I'd say "found steel" like leaf or coil springs are a good source of FREE steel. For stock removal https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/shop/1084-carbon-steel is about as good a source as there is for small mounts. Their shipping is so much cheaper than most other places for steel.

For a work table HF has a good table, it's only 60" long, but they are pretty good - I've got 5 of them for work tables. The normal price is $160, but there's always a 20% coupon around bringing the price down to around $130.
https://www.harborfreight.com/60-in-4-drawer-hardwood-workbench-62603.html

With a half way decent drill press you can build a nice grinder with VFD drive for around $700 to $800 or so that will be as good as anything you can buy, and better than some.

Other than small hand tools (drill bits, sandpaper, etc) I'd think the 3 most important tools are:
1. a decent grinder (2X72 best because of good selection of belts),
2. Portable band saw w/table (to cut out profiles for blades and more other things than you'll ever think of.)
3. A drill press - Again, more uses than you'll ever think of.

Sending blades to JT for heat treating is a good idea, That allows you to use AEB-L or other SS as well as carbon. It's not too expensive to rig up your own HT method for carbon steels.

Good luck and have fun!
 
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Just wanted to say a quick thank you to all!

First, it's good to know I'm on the right track. For those asking, I'm in Rapid City, SD.

Ill update my profile and check back in after re-reading and processing a bit.

Much obliged til then!
 
For a workbench, make a rectangular frame out of 2x3 and screw to the studs. Support the edge opposite the wall with 2x3 legs. Use a 1x3 to span the legs to help stabilize them. Then cover the top with plywood. Paint if you want. By utilizing the wall studs, you get a solid workbench with less material. I use a $25 chest-of-drawers to hold tools, whereas some people get those $300 metal mechanic snapon drawer things. This keeps you from having to make drawers in your workbench which is tricky if you never done it before and is also expensive and time consuming. $25 yard sale chest-of-drawers is easy.

The grinder is important. I got a 1x42 when i started and am just now getting around to making my 2x72.

Here are my two pieces of advice on tools i have learned the hard way:

The problem with cheap tools is it makes it harder to get the more expensive tool you wanted all along since you have something that technically works. You end up dealing with its peculiarities because it is convenient. Then when you do buy the more expensive tool, what do you do with the cheap tool? Unless it is a HF tool, it likely wont ever actually break, so dont kid yourself with the "when it goes out i will buy the tool i really want"...

The problem with small tools is you will eventually get a project where it needs more capacity (more vertical travel on drill press, more horsepower on grinder, larger chuck on lathe, etc) and now you either have to outsource it or buy a bigger tool. If you buy a bigger tool, then what do you do with the small tool? The money spent on the small tool is essentially wasted.
 
Hey guys! Apologies for taking so long. Have been extremely busy lately.

I'm taking in alot and still trying to find the time to sit down and formulate concise responses. Forgive me if I haven't specifically addressed anything said yet. I can tend to ramble (as you've already noticed) when I get goin!

But for now, may I elaborate one of those previous questions?

Realistically, is there a hugely significant reason NOT to get a 2x48 3/4 hp grinder to free up other costs for now? I ask this planning to get a REALLY nice 2x72 in the future anyway. I'd just like to start to get in some grinding experience, and figured either a 2x48, or MAYBE even a 1x42 might hold me over until I can get a real machine.

I'm aware of the basic inadequacies and limitations, but simply put, is it going to be a hindrance to a beginner? Will a decent powered 2x48 fill a satisfactory gap while I save for a nice 2x72? What other inexpensive alternatives might there be?

I'm sure many will say just get a 2x72. I'm also curious if anyone will vouch for a 2x48! Slower I'm sure. Less range of belts. But if it works, I'm not opposed to starting out underpowered to get the experience in. I'd like to get the "feel," and I heard a 2 inch belt had good feedback, plus I would assume it would be the closest thing to the ultimate goal of the 2x72.

Looking forward to your thoughts, and to more opinions, experience, and education. Hope I conveyed my meaning properly.

As always, grateful for your time!
 
First advice is, save up more.. At $1300 for a from scratch shop, your going to have to get extremely creative here and start figuring out what to sacrifice not having the capability to do until you can put more money into equipment.

For a workbench, craigslist! with how small your budget is, that should be something you aren't having to spend money on. period. Soo many people offloading grandpas old workbenches for free that you should have zero problem scoring a freebie that will be stronger than anything you can afford to buy/ build. May have to chop legs down a bit for grinder height to be right, but free is free right?

Drill press, buy one used. You should be able to score one for under $50 that will do anything you will need for a while.

For H/T. my advice is don't... with your budget, your money would be better spent on sending it out for HT and putting the money into more equipment first.

Budget at least 5x more for the "small" stuff and accessories than you ever planned. No joke here, it adds up FAR faster than you could ever imagine. Granite surface plate, gauges(height/thickness), carbide file guide, drill bits, files, clamps, etc etc etc.

For grinder, just get a cheap 2x72 and call it good for now. This really is the one item where you can't skimp on without major downsides to it. Are people making knives without em? yeah, but show me a custom knife made without one that anyone here would be proud to own? yeah few and far between. Not to say it can't be done, and done well, but it's starting ya off with a handicap that is pretty darn hard to get around.
 
Something to think about is holding off on the grinder and making a few knives by hand. I found out when I bought my grinder that there is a pretty big curve learning to use it. I am short on time so I used blade steel and a bunch of belts. My average belt order is over $500. I now regret not making a file jig and starting the hobby years earlier. You can even use a cheap angle grinder to hog off material and then just clean up the bevels. That will give you money for steel, sandpaper, handle materials, file guides, drill press etc.
 
skillgannon said:
Something to think about is holding off on the grinder and making a few knives by hand. I found out when I bought my grinder that there is a pretty big curve learning to use it. I am short on time so I used blade steel and a bunch of belts. My average belt order is over $500. I now regret not making a file jig and starting the hobby years earlier. You can even use a cheap angle grinder to hog off material and then just clean up the bevels. That will give you money for steel, sandpaper, handle materials, file guides, drill press etc.
Click to expand...

I agree with the sentiment above, i.e. just get started and make some knives... The files you get for making by hand will still be useful. You could even just get a crappy Harbor Freight 1x30 for $50 and try it out, it could still be useful for grinding handles when you get a 2x72. I'm probably biased since I still only use a 1x30 because I'm trying to figure out how and where I can put a 2x72... I do all my work on the front porch and gotta figure out how to make it easily portable...

I think the maker who made the knives below just grinds his bevels with an angle grinder... Does a pretty nice job IMO. I think he profiles with a bench grinder and does handle shaping with a 1x30.
6a.jpg



Another advantage of just starting out cheap is that maybe you make a knife or two and then learn that you're not really that into it. But then you spent money that you spent on tools that you're not using anymore.
 
Gough jig
Work bench, good files, high tension hacksaw (good bi metal blades), good drill press, bits, sandpaper, good clamps, send out for heat treat.

You will get some under your belt, understand the process, and be informed about what you really want out of a grinder. All the good tools you get now will still be good. The next step up is the metal cutting band saw and 2x72.
 
May I humbly suggest you build a multiple use bench, buy a few files, get some sandpaper, a foot of 1095, a vice, and farm out heat treating? What if you don't like this hobby and have $1300 worth of dust catchers?

You don't know me and I don't know your situation but you've mentioned you don't have a lot of free time. It was over a week since the last response to this thread and your response. This is a time consuming hobby. Better equipment can cut that time down but only so far. Technique and experience (both of which I lack, for the record) can dramatically improve things but still.....maybe stick your toes into the pool before jumping in head first is all I'm saying.
 
ten-six said:
This is a time consuming hobby. Better equipment can cut that time down but only so far.
Click to expand...

This has been my experience so far too. My metal cutting band saw and 2x72 are worlds away from hacksaw, files, sandpaper. But the time sink still seems to be the same.
 
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