Sebenza 21 lock problem

Do you consider my knife to have an issue at all?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 33.3%

  • No

    Votes: 18 66.7%
  • Total voters
    27
pnsxyr said:
Ultimately, you're asking but you think this is a problem. If you think it is a problem, you should absolutely send it back to CRK, IMHO. There are limits to what we can say from a video without being able to inspect a knife, and the Maker is best qualified to determine what is going on and address it accordingly.

That said, how much pressure are you putting on the spine? It looks to be quite a bit, but again videos can be deceiving. To me, that determines if there is an issue. If this is an amount of force that you could apply with your thumb when using the knife or if the knife should slip during normal usage and contact a surface with the spine, it's a very big issue and the knife needs immediate service. If you are using a lot of your body weight to place tremendous force on the knife, it's not. If I was going to be performing work that would potentially place tremendous force on the spine of the knife, I'd use my ESEE 6 or another fixed blade with thick and soft steel.

Further, your pivot appears to potentially be loose, and my first hand experimentation out of curiously has found that this can and generally will cause both liner locks and frame locks (with and without pivot bushings) to 'fail' (if you consider such usage to constitute a failure) in this scenario with much less downward pressure than if the pivot is tighter.

In sum, I think you should send the knife to CRK.
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Just want to assure everyone the pivot is definitely not loose. Everything is very tight, no play and blade doesn't drop freely, there is no greese/lube whatsoever.
I am pushing with weight I guess but not leaning on it. My other knives I have all have been subject to this and they pass because they don't have the issue presented. I am offering you a quick easy test, just put the lockbar at the end and see if it's prone to slipping and also facilitating a discussion here on whether it should even be acceptable or not. To some people here, this is completely fine. That's why there is a poll, you can all see for yourselves.
I used to work as a welder/fabricator and when doing installations found myself in a lot of crowded spaces on ladders etc. This is something people here like to bring up, when they are on a ladder they like to be able to have a one hand open operation with their folder. So no fixed blade. This folder we are talking about, "the original hard use knife" called worker, implies being able to be utilized in these kinds of settings. Well shit can happen and your ladder can wobble a bit while you have the knife out. You might flail your arm to regain balance and tap the spine on this same ladder or something else. Something can fall when you have the knife out. I am done fantasizing...
I feel it's a flaw in my knife and it's a forum where we discuss things and I think with some folks attitudes this is something that could have been overlooked for a while as people are quick to brush it under the rug of not intended use and not look at it as a possible design flaw. Basically brushing all of this off and sending me to CRK or switch to other brands. I like this brand and want it to improve. Spyderco for example listens to their customers if customers think there is a problem.

Ajack60 Ajack60 Your mentioning of intended use is just your opinion, it's not gospel. Your reply sounds a bit posh if you ask me. I don't always carry an EDC scapper around. I think it's fine to scrape a bit with a spine of your knife without going overboard. It's not scraping with your edge. Think old timers did all kinds of clever tasks with their knives that were flimsier. You basically saying, even if my knife behaves like this, it's not a problem, as you would be able to get around it by babying your knife.
 
I can make most any of my frames locks slip using your "test" method. If they didn't they would have major lock stick ... to me it is not an issue it is the design. I don't baby my knives and I trust my CRKs as much as I trust any folder ... but treat them as such ... a folder ... not a fixed blade.

If you don't feel it's safe then you should contact CRK and discuss it with them directly as they are the only entity that may give you peace of mind no matter what anyone here says. I think this has been blown out if proportion and is a non issue ... especially after all these years CRKs have been around and have been so well respected. I will be interested to hear CRK's take on this.
 
Sergeua said:
Just want to assure everyone the pivot is definitely not loose. Everything is very tight, no play and blade doesn't drop freely, there is no greese/lube whatsoever.
I am pushing with weight I guess but not leaning on it. My other knives I have all have been subject to this and they pass because they don't have the issue presented. I am offering you a quick easy test, just put the lockbar at the end and see if it's prone to slipping and also facilitating a discussion here on whether it should even be acceptable or not. To some people here, this is completely fine. That's why there is a poll, you can all see for yourselves.
I used to work as a welder/fabricator and when doing installations found myself in a lot of crowded spaces on ladders etc. This is something people here like to bring up, when they are on a ladder they like to be able to have a one hand open operation with their folder. So no fixed blade. This folder we are talking about, "the original hard use knife" called worker, implies being able to be utilized in these kinds of settings. Well shit can happen and your ladder can wobble a bit while you have the knife out. You might flail your arm to regain balance and tap the spine on this same ladder or something else. Something can fall when you have the knife out. I am done fantasizing...
I feel it's a flaw in my knife and it's a forum where we discuss things and I think with some folks attitudes this is something that could have been overlooked for a while as people are quick to brush it under the rug of not intended use and not look at it as a possible design flaw. Basically brushing all of this off and sending me to CRK or switch to other brands. I like this brand and want it to improve. Spyderco for example listens to their customers if customers think there is a problem.
Click to expand...

If it is unacceptable to you, the knife should be serviced by CRK as none of us can fully recreate the variables that you are experiencing and you are the end user of that specific knife (as you noted the pivot was tight, but my take from the video was that it was loose...this shows the limitations of how much I can infer from a video.) None of us can definitively say it is normal or abnormal. A moderate amount of pressure will not cause my 21s to fail. I do not wish to apply a considerable amount of pressure. If you feel the knife is flawed, it should go to CRK for service. They might come back and say 'yes, there was X issue and we replaced Y'. This is why we are suggesting so strongly to send to CRK.
 
I just tested 12 CRKs (not digging out anymore), a mix of inkosi’s and 21s. All large except one small. Every single one of them folds when I move the lock bar over back towards the handle. I just consider this unlocking the knife and it’s supposed to fold. None of them will fold when they’re locked. CRKs have a later lockup than most folders.

But CRK will give you the best answer since they design and make the knife.
 
If you move the lock bar toward the edge of the tang, of course there's an increased chance of lock failure. That's why CRK puts the lockup at 50+% instead of 10%. This would happen on just about every frame lock out there. I really don't see why you're concerned about it. If lock failure isn't happening at the full, normal lockup, just have peace of mind and leave it at that.
 
I can see how someone might be unhappy about the way the lock slipped on the first video. Though that is subjective as others have mentioned we’ve no way to know how much pressure was actually applied.

However, I don’t see how the knife closing when the lock is mostly disengaged is an issue. Frame locks work due to friction and when you take that away that’s the result. My AD10 has what I believe to be one of the strongest locks. However, if I partially disengage the Triad lock I get lock rock. This isn’t a symptom of the lock failing but being disengaged and I think the same is true of your Sebenza.
 
Your test proved nothing. You can’t even compare the 21 & 31 as they have different locks. I have owned 300+ sebenzas in large and small with zero failure. (A ceramic ball lock will fail as I have experienced that). You were putting ALOT of pressure on the spine at an angle that will rarely have any pressure on it, especially not in the amount you applied. EVERYTHING has a fail point and you reached it. All these “tests” from the experts definitely want to make me steer clear of the secondary market....lol.
 
The zeitgeist of the interwebz right now:

6x7LHvg.jpg
 
Here is a chinese knockoff that seems to care more about my fingers.
(this knife you can apply same or more pressure it doesn't fail. I cut the flipper off so it looks like that)
I tried my other liner and framelocks and they all pass.
Those other framelocks some bring up as examples that fail and think it's all good could all use improvements in my opinion. gastonian gastonian , we are talking framelock maybe linerlock. Triadlock is beyond comparison.
@JAB I'll take a jab at you bro. I saw you post in general saying how you will take a properly designed liner lock any day. Well my friend, this is what it takes to have a properly designed framelock or a linerlock.

If you want to scrutinize my videos or see it somehow differently. Let me know and I will try and accommodate. Can show you a CKF linerlock with a steel insert and how it handles all of these tests if you like. Believe me.
 
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Sergeua said:
Just want to assure everyone the pivot is definitely not loose. Everything is very tight, no play and blade doesn't drop freely, there is no greese/lube whatsoever.
I am pushing with weight I guess but not leaning on it. My other knives I have all have been subject to this and they pass because they don't have the issue presented. I am offering you a quick easy test, just put the lockbar at the end and see if it's prone to slipping and also facilitating a discussion here on whether it should even be acceptable or not. To some people here, this is completely fine. That's why there is a poll, you can all see for yourselves.
I used to work as a welder/fabricator and when doing installations found myself in a lot of crowded spaces on ladders etc. This is something people here like to bring up, when they are on a ladder they like to be able to have a one hand open operation with their folder. So no fixed blade. This folder we are talking about, "the original hard use knife" called worker, implies being able to be utilized in these kinds of settings. Well shit can happen and your ladder can wobble a bit while you have the knife out. You might flail your arm to regain balance and tap the spine on this same ladder or something else. Something can fall when you have the knife out. I am done fantasizing...
I feel it's a flaw in my knife and it's a forum where we discuss things and I think with some folks attitudes this is something that could have been overlooked for a while as people are quick to brush it under the rug of not intended use and not look at it as a possible design flaw. Basically brushing all of this off and sending me to CRK or switch to other brands. I like this brand and want it to improve. Spyderco for example listens to their customers if customers think there is a problem.

Ajack60 Ajack60 Your mentioning of intended use is just your opinion, it's not gospel. Your reply sounds a bit posh if you ask me. I don't always carry an EDC scapper around. I think it's fine to scrape a bit with a spine of your knife without going overboard. It's not scraping with your edge. Think old timers did all kinds of clever tasks with their knives that were flimsier. You basically saying, even if my knife behaves like this, it's not a problem, as you would be able to get around it by babying your knife.
Click to expand...

You couldn't be more wrong. If my statement was just my opinion, I would have inserted IMO. I get the information from CRK web page under their warranty clause. Maybe you should read it. If by babying you mean cutting things, the knife getting full of mud, dirt and grime and then having to clean the knife thoroughly, accidentally flattening the edge not seeing a hidden staple and not using the knife as a pry bar, batoning or trying to open a car door, then yeah, I baby my knives and not just CRK's.
Thinking that a CRK should have early lock up is just wrong. Once again, on the web page they state 50/60% lock up is normal. There's been threads discussing lock up that has pictures to show what the lock up on a typical CRK. As already mentioned, pushing the lock bar to the edge of the blade will result in lock failure, if that's what it's called. IMO, that's just disengaging the lock partially and over time will damage the lock interface.
It seems that some knife companies design their frame locks to have early lock up. Then again, that's just my opinion. So, I'd guess that lock up is going to be different with each brand and that comparing different knives lock up doesn't prove anything. If you look at a liner lock, the lock bar/spring is seated on the blade completely, some go over more than others. The width/thickness of the liner lock is in contact with the tang of the blade, whereas on a frame lock only part of the lock bar is touching the blade tang. Seems like a liner lock would be safer than a frame lock. That's just my observation.
No one is sweeping anything under the rug or brushing anything off. I really don't understand why you would make that statement. It is your opinion that there is a design flaw with CRK and not with just your knife.
CRK is the only one that can confirm or deny a design flaw, hence, send them the video to understand your perceived issues and see what they think.
 
I think everyone here who thinks there is a design flaw with all these CRK knives, should start their own knife making companies and rule the world... should be easy to out do the Idaho flunkies, right? I will even help bail out those unhappy owners. (at a reduced price of course!)
 
When you use your framelocks do you push the lockbar back to the beginning? I let mine lock and when I grip it locks deeper. Most CRK users will notice that, let’s say you cut some tape to open a package, light use. The lock will release real easy. If I’m stripping 350mcm USE wire in the dead of winter outside, I’m really gonna have to bear down on the knife. When I grip like that it pushes the lock further over. When I release it I’ll get that little touch of lock stick from where I’ve pushed the lock in deeper. So basically in normal use I’m ever only pushing the lock bar one way. There’s not really any time I can think I’m cutting with a framelock and pushing the lockbar back to the start.

I’ve got an Inkosi that looks like it’s almost 80 percent lockup if not more. It’s not that much of the ball. I’ve got a couple 21s that look almost 85 if not more percent lockup. CRKs just have a late lockup. That’s how they’re designed.

Also in your Chinese knockoff video it looks like your putting pressure on both sides of the pivot trying to fold it. Not saying that’s the reason it’s not folding but I know on my Inkosi with me today I can put pressure on both sides of handles by the pivot and it makes it really hard to fold. But it also has a floating stop pin

If you think it’s an issue that is perfectly fine. Under normal use they work like a charm. No need to worry. It’ll take very little time to send Crk your videos and they’re usually fairly quick with a response. I think they may have paved the way on framelocks so they’ll have a better answer than me. I’m not claiming to be any sort of expert on lockup and lock geometry and all that. I just use the shit out of my CRKs with confidence and enjoy them. If you don’t enjoy them you shouldn’t keep them. Just like anything else in life.
 
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The replies are understandable here. Lots of folks have vested interest and I'm in CRK subforum. It be a bit different discussing what makes a great framelock in general in a different forum.
So far I'm gathering that this is something to be expected with the model and perhaps my 21 could use a bit of a later lockup to be on a safer side.

Ajack60 Ajack60 The way you replied earlier made me picture yourself puffing on a cohiba while taking the knife out, cutting and putting it away in your pouch. Hey that's pretty cool too, don't take it the wrong way. You know, I familiarized myself with the warranty document you referenced as the source of intended use. However, all I found was just a disclaimer that damage to the knife while used improperly is not covered. Lots of room for discretion left by CRK to interpret things how they see fit. Understandable. Just that the intended use of any knife in general or sebenza is not really mentioned there and is still very debatable. There could be a thread just for this topic, where people will have all kinds of keyword opinions. You are only right about CRK themselves having the final word on what constitutes intended use regarding their products only.

CRK should also listen to the people and strive to improve their products. The knife can damage you and still function properly, remaining free of damage afterwards. Improper use you say, or maybe it's not that safe as you think. I think it could be better and I provide constructive criticism.

So with that I turn to you folks who as the poll shows don't care much and at the end of the day you get what you get.
Do you like knives and want them to be better? Sebenza is something that can stand on its own and shouldn't have to be carried around accompanied by a fixed blade. It's got a lock for a reason. The idea here is for the lock to function like a good lock. An elevator is designed to handle more load than what it's going to be subjected to on a regular. I don't want things that are prone to failure if you are not careful.

Dcdavis Dcdavis
R ruddyduck maybe pick better framelocks, I don't feel like lowering my standards.

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no sebenzas or other knives were harmed while making the videos
 
Unfortunately my Reeve knives work just fine (even...shock horror!!... a dreaded 31!!).

If they didn't I'd send them to CRK to fix.

So... um... there's that.
 
Clem Fandango said:
Unfortunately my Reeve knives work just fine (even...shock horror!!... a dreaded 31!!).

If they didn't I'd send them to CRK to fix.

So... um... there's that.
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That’s what I can’t understand. If you have a CRK and it has an issue or you think it has an issue why not call CRK and explain to them the issue that you are having. If they say there is a problem then send it in for a fix. Coming on here to complain and for opinions isn’t gonna accomplish anything. The sooner you send it in the sooner you’ll have it back and fixed.
 
vwb563 said:
That’s what I can’t understand. If you have a CRK and it has an issue or you think it has an issue why not call CRK and explain to them the issue that you are having. If they say there is a problem then send it in for a fix. Coming on here to complain and for opinions isn’t gonna accomplish anything. The sooner you send it in the sooner you’ll have it back and fixed.
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Alright I'll get on it. Just had a hunch that more people are going to be just fine with this kind of behaviour and wanted to check that out. I have a hidden agenda ;)
 
Sergeua said:
Here is a chinese knockoff that seems to care more about my fingers.
(this knife you can apply same or more pressure it doesn't fail. I cut the flipper off so it looks like that)
I tried my other liner and framelocks and they all pass.
Those other framelocks some bring up as examples that fail and think it's all good could all use improvements in my opinion. gastonian gastonian , we are talking framelock maybe linerlock. Triadlock is beyond comparison.
@JAB I'll take a jab at you bro. I saw you post in general saying how you will take a properly designed liner lock any day. Well my friend, this is what it takes to have a properly designed framelock or a linerlock.

If you want to scrutinize my videos or see it somehow differently. Let me know and I will try and accommodate. Can show you a CKF linerlock with a steel insert and how it handles all of these tests if you like. Believe me.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, if you thought my post was about Triad locks then you missed the point entirely.
 
gastonian said:
Unfortunately, if you thought my post was about Triad locks then you missed the point entirely.
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Alright, apologies. Your point was that you don't get my point because framelock relies on friction only. Maybe it was truly like that before when it was not carburized. It's just I'm not catching any friction on mine. All the surfaces are nicely polished and my assumption is the lock, as observed in the first video, fails because at the end phase of unlocking, it slips. There isn't anything catching the blade. If you push hard enough, the lockbar goes to the end (or beginning of lockface) naturally where there is a damn cliff. That's why I just skip to that phase to show what's happening in a controlled fashion, without messing up the knife.
Wouldn't it be nice if there was an additional feature like that? Somebody must have beat me to it, as I just magically find all these knives that seem to get it.
 
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