Sebenza and Pinnacle-too similar?

UW Mitch · Dec 11, 1999

I first saw a Sebenza at Chris Reeve's table at a recent knife show. This was before I knew anything about the Sebenza or CRK. I took one look at it and thought, "Isn't that just a custom Pinnacle, or something?" I have since learned that Benchmade "designed" the Pinnacle well AFTER Chris Reeve's Sebenza, and paid the man NOTHING for it (as far as I've heard, correct me if I'm wrong).
I love my Benchmade stuff, but this didn't seem right to me. I asked BM about the subject and this is the response they gave me:

> >
> > > Hi Mitchell,
> > >
> > > I've fielded this question before. Here goes.
> > > The mono-lock has been around a long time and as far as we know, no
one
> > has
> > > a patent on it. Basically it is a liner lock.
> > > Chris has used the monolock more than anyone else and has gotten very
> good
> > > at it. The lock itself is very difficult to produce as we found out.
> > > Hope this clarifies things for you.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Travis Noteboom
> > >
> > > Benchmade Knife Co.
> > > 300 Beavercreek Rd.
> > > Oregon City, OR 97045
> > >
> > > 1-800-800-7427, Ext. 166

I don't mean this to be a flame BM thing, and I don't want to offend anyone. I know many of you have also wondered about the Pinnacle vs. Sebenza too, so here's BM side of the story. Hope it helps!

~Mitch

p.s. I know all the Sebenzaists will jump into this one, and really would like a response from Chris or Anne Reeve too.

shawn · Dec 11, 1999

i've noticed i'm the first to reply to this posting which has been here for awhile....lol.anyways, i handled a sebenza today at a gun and knife show and it was really a great knife and yes they are similar.i'm gonna get ridicueled for this but for the money a bm 750 is a great buy in comparison to a sebenza(if you get a good one as i did today) hmmm lets see, 100 for a 750, 325 for a sebenza....if you have the money to buy a sebenza buy the sebenza, but if you don't get the pinnacle, it's a great knife but you may have to sharpen that dull blade....lol

JoHnYKwSt · Dec 11, 1999

I used to think Chris Reeve invented the integral lock. But I recently learned I was wrong. Seems that Crawford made an integral lock back in the 70's. But then again I bet there are examples of liner locks that are more than a century old. It's hard to invent something completely new these days.

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Johnny
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UW Mitch · Dec 11, 1999

I'm not going to argue about the integral bar lock, I'm kind of wondering about the fact that they both use Ti slabs as handles, and IMO the blade shape is very similar. I was concerned, because in my email I did left it open for BM to answer, and they only addressed one point.
Anyway, I guess it's not really a topic to argue. Those who want to spend more for "the best" will buy a Sebenza, and those who can't afford or don't wnat to pay the money will buy the Pinnacle.
I'm more intrested in how or if the Pinnacle has effected CRK, and how the similarities effect peoples view of BM.

~Mitch

Humpty · Dec 11, 1999

Well this controversy has gone on for a while Mitch, and I don't think it'll go away. Although benchmade was my first love in knives, I find it a bit too coincidental that it just so happens it looks the same. I definitly know that they perform differently and that's why I have a sebbie and not a 750. So it's up to you. If BM puts out a quality knife that people like then fine. I love the Benza and that's what I'm sticking by!

my $0.02!

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-Humpty

Proverbs 23:2

Allen Blade · Dec 11, 1999

hello,

This is exactly one of the Reasons i posted my Topic, a great example. is it right for some to do and not others??

UW Mitch · Dec 11, 1999

Allen,
In my opinion, what BM did was wrong. I will therefore NEVER buy a Pinnacle. HOWEVER, there are many people who will buy Pinnacles. I guess "legally" BM did not do anything wrong, but it would have been nice if they had first asked, and paid a royalty to CRK. I think that if nothing else the public perception of the Pinnacle would have been better. I like Elishewitz knives, but buy the BM collabs. I like the Sebenza, and would have bought a BM collab. if BM had acknowledged Chris Reeve.
The lesson to be learned is that knife bussiness is a bussiness world and everyone needs to protect their own intrests. I have found custom makers to be honorable, and many companies too. I think this issue tarnshes my perspective of big bussiness.
If anyone has a counter-perspective I would love to hear it.

~Mitch

Joe Talmadge · Dec 11, 1999

I realize there will never be consensus on this issue, but here are my feelings...

>I'm kind of wondering
>about the fact that they both use Ti slabs as handles

Well, unless you use Ti slabs, you end up with a Farid-esque monstrosity. If you do an integral lock and you don't want it to be an overheavy monster, you use Ti slabs for the frame. A few makers put some scales on the outside, but that's just non-substantive dressing; the basic structure is Ti slabs. The CRKT S-2 is similarly done with Ti slabs. However, the Pinnacle's handles are actually an improvement over the Sebenza's (IMO of course), whereas the S-2's handles are not. Anyway, point is, the integral lock more or less necessitates thick Ti handles of some sort (e.g., Apogee) -- only Allen Elishewitz has done something really innovative to the format, with his bolster lock.

> and IMO the blade shape is very similar.

For me, I can see that the handles of the Pinnacle and Sebenza appear at least superficially similar, but the blades are totally different to my eyes. The Pinnacle's blade -- with a thick sabre grind, recurved blade, and false edge -- will excel at totally different things than the Sebenza's blade with its beautifully-done thin hollow grind. The Pinnacle's blade is very close to Walter Brend's combat folder blade, which I don't believe is a coincidence, as Benchmade used to produce a Brend fighting folder. I don't believe the two blade shapes look or perform the same. The obviously different blades is probably the biggest reason I don't consider the Pinnacle just a Sebenza clone.

Joe

R.D.Hatch · Dec 11, 1999

I agree with Joe. The blade shape is different and the two are quite dissimilar when you discount the similarity of the locking mech.
I have both and enjoy using both and find them both some of the best knives one can carry for utility work.

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Those who beat their arms into plowshares will plow for those who do not.
R.D.Hatch
Stafford,Virginia

leroys_45 · Dec 11, 1999

i also agree with joe. same concept, different knives. i now have two 750's, bought one and got another in a trade. if anything, they have made me seriously consider getting a sebenza. i wasn't sure if i'd like the whole integral lock that i'd heard so much about. i definitely see a sebenza in my future now that i have had a 750.

misque · Dec 11, 1999

I agree with what Joe says also.

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So, what IS the speed of dark?

stjames · Dec 12, 1999

Not BM's Finest Moment.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA

UW Mitch · Dec 12, 1999

I was looking at James Mattis' site:
http://www.chaicutlery.com/chrisreeve.html

Where he has pics of the Sebenza and Pinnacle side by side. I guess concept wise the Pinnacle and Sebenza are quite similar, but perhaps the excecution is diffrent.

~Mitch

Joe Talmadge · Dec 12, 1999

Wow. If those were the only pics you've seen, I can see why you thought the two knives looked so similar. As I said, I do believe there is some similarity, but those pictures really make the two knives look even more alike than they are.

The blades, as I said, look totally different. The Pinnacle is a Brend fighter pattern, the Sebenza's is totally different in shape and grind. Even the finish is totally different, the Pinnacle getting a satin finish and the Sebenza getting the stonewashed. The blades are COMPLETELY different beasts, in real life.

I do think there's at least some superficial resemblance in the handles, but the pictures make it look like just a very subtle matter of some soft curves, whereas I think the Benchmade's handle looks more different from the Sebenza than the pictures tell you. I also like the Benchmade's handle better. And again, the finish is different, though you can't tell from the pics. Even the way the lock is fine-tuned is different -- Reeves does it with a couple vertical channels, Benchmade does it with a milled-in horizontal channel.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com

UW Mitch · Dec 12, 1999

I've seen both up close, but never side by side. Those pics are all I've seen as far as side by side. Maybe I'll just have to buy a Sebenza and take it into a local cutlery shop and compare it to the BM. Then again, $325 is a lot of money just to do a comparison! Oh well, I'll take your words for it that they are sufficently diffrent.

Thanks,
Mitch

lifter4Him · Dec 12, 1999

Mitch-the Sebenza is a production knife. Why would one production company do a collaboration with another production company? BM usually does collaborations with custom makers.
Now, dont you Sebenza guys get your knickers in a twist. I am not saying anything against the Sebenza, it is a great knife. But it is a production knife,right? So, where would CR benefit from a collaboration? He could just put out a cheaper model if that was what he wanted, instead of having someone else make it.

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lifter
Phil. 4:13

Dave
Wharton,NJ

JoHnYKwSt · Dec 12, 1999

To defend Benchmade: Chris recently changed the way the lock bar is bent. Instead of having two scallop cut outs, the new design strikes a remarkable resemblence to benchmade's design. I guess we all learn from eachother.

I hope I'm still a Sebenzanite after making this post.

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Johnny
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James Mattis · Dec 12, 1999

Interesting, that pictures that I thought highlighted the differences between the two knives should highlight the similarities to other people.

Yes, the blades are very different. The handles are both bead-blasted titanium, in-line with the blade, but they aren't the same, any more than one rough and ready G10 handle is the same as every other rough and ready G10 handle, though there are so many of them that sometimes I think they blur together.

It turns out that a titanium frame lock is is simple in concept, but tricky to do right. The price difference between the two knives is in the details. The Sebenza is a good solid working knife for people who appreciate the details. The 750 is a good solid working knife.

The titanium frame lock is such a good way to build a knife that I would hate to see it available in only one style, three sizes. CRK is chronically back-ordered on the Sebenza, and shows no sign of introducing new models any time soon (other than a very limited edition geo-tanto for some brick and mortar stores), so the only way we're going to see variations of the theme is if other companies start doing them. Benchmade has done a flat-ground blade with a recurve. I'd like to see a Mono-Lock version of the late lamented Benchmade Mini Spike as the ultimate folding paring knife. Somebody else may want a spearpoint.

Benchmade has added another choice. So has Columbia River, though the S2 pleases my eye more than it does my hand. More choices are better.

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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001

shootist16 · Dec 12, 1999

James is right, the more choices the better. Competition should bring out the best anyway. I also feel that the 750 gives people that would not or could not buy a Sebenza a chance at having an intergral lock.

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Dennis Bible
Knoxville, Tennessee

stjames · Dec 12, 1999

Johnny, the lock spring cut out was changed to the single long groove on the Wood Inlay Sebenzas only. This places the spring section totally under the lock bar, so that the rest of the scale is still thick enough to allow the inlay on the back side of the handle.
The lock change in the general line is the milled out section under the clip to give it a bigger "bite". The two short grooves are still used for the spring.

I know that Darrel Ralph uses the two short grooves on the Apogee, and does refer to it as the "Integral" lock. I am not sure how Allen Elishewitz is doing it on his "monolock" knives. He might be going with the Benchmade design, since he has a relationship with them and is using their term for the lock.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA

Sebenza and Pinnacle-too similar?

UW Mitch

shawn

JoHnYKwSt

UW Mitch

Humpty

Allen Blade

UW Mitch

Joe Talmadge

R.D.Hatch

leroys_45

misque

stjames

Sebenzanista

UW Mitch

Joe Talmadge

UW Mitch

lifter4Him

JoHnYKwSt

James Mattis

shootist16

knife law moderator

stjames

Sebenzanista