Sebenza and Pinnacle-too similar?

TomW · Dec 13, 1999

levis and lee look similar.Many cars do. A LOT of knives do.
What's the point? Don't go making judgments about business ethics that you know nothing about.

UW Mitch · Dec 13, 1999

Perhaps my post was taken the wrong way. In my view, the Pinnacle and Sebenza looked very similar. If other people felt the same way. Some people do, but people with a more keen eye were quick to point out the differences between the two knives. I was unsure of my original asessment of their similarities which is why I asked. I got BM's response, and hoped that Chris or Anne Reeve would also respond. They have not, but many others have.

I thank everyone for responding to my question, and I now realize that these are infact two distinct knives. If I offended anyone, including TomW I appologize. I only meant to gain a better perspective, not to flame anyone or any company.

~Mitch

JoHnYKwSt · Dec 13, 1999

Thanks for the correction James. I thought the lock change was done to all sebenzas.

Any ideas as to the advantages and disadvantages of each? Why the change only to the wood inlay sebenzas? If the change is to allow more room for the inlay, and the regular sebenzas still have the two scallop cutouts, then I would assume the two scallops are "better". Otherwise, Chris would have done the single cut out to all sebenzas.

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Johnny
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stjames · Dec 13, 1999

Johnny, I talked to Larry at KnifeArt today about the various Integral Lock knives he has in stock. Allen Elishewitz is using the same method as CRK and Darrel Ralph; two short grooved perpendicular with the length of the handle. This leads me to believe that the single, long groove in line with the handle is only applied when deemed absolutely necessary, as on the Inlayed Sebenzas.

Of course, now I have to get one to see how the action is. And one of those new Dozier Integrals as well

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA

TomW · Dec 13, 1999

There is no need to apologize for anything UW.
Please ignore my gruff attitude.I mean no harm. There are cases if outright stealing of other peoples ideas in knives as we all know but much of what we see in knives is just old stuff with a facelift.

Chris Reeve Knives · Dec 15, 1999

Sorry for the late reply - just havent been into the Forums for a few days!!

Here is Chris response:
"Almost every "new" thing in life has "probably been done before". There have been claims that knives with an integral type of lock were made before the Sebenza but to date, I have not seen any of them. I made the first Sebenza in 1987 and all I know about prior knives with a similar lock is hearsay. At the 1987 show of the Knifemakers Guild of Southern Africa, the Sebenza won the award for best folding knife.

At Chris Reeve Knives, we have popularized and perfected the Sebenza Integral Lock© and it is this for which our company is best known. Chris Reeve Knives owns a copyright on the name "Sebenza Integral Lock©". In the same vein, the Liner Lock© was not invented by Michael Walker but he did perfect it. Schrade have used that mechanism on their Electricians Knife for many years.

As Travis at Benchmade says it is a difficult knife to make. We have had 12 years to iron out those difficulties and therein lies some of the cost of the Sebenza. Precision comes at a cost - take Porsche and Rolex as examples. So does the backup service that keeps the product in tiptop condition. We designed the Sebenza as a knife that you would keep for life. The support we offer on our knives is that if it needs fixing in 10 years, then we will fix it. So far this philosophy has worked.

To address the comments on the different type of cut out on the small and large wood inlay Sebenzas. This is something that we tried in order to see if there was any advantage. I did not feel that there was any so we reverted to what we were doing before. Only 60 pieces in each size have been made like that.

Has the introduction of the Pinnacle and other similar style knives made any difference to us? None at all. We are still consistently back ordered, and we continue to work on improving an already tried and tested product.

Chris"

UW Mitch · Dec 16, 1999

Mr. Reeve,
Thank you for your reply. I was hoping that you'd be able to address this question, because I have been wondering about it for a while now.

Happy Holidays!
~Mitch

Griffon · Dec 17, 1999

Precision comes at a cost - take Porsche and Rolex as examples.

I think I know what is meant, but the examples probably aren't that well chosen, as European makers of luxury goods deliberately hold down production and limits availability, in order to keep their products exclusive.

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Urban Fredriksson
www.canit.se/%7Egriffon/

"Smooth and serrated blades cut in two entirely different fashions."
- The Teeth of the Tyrannosaurs, Scientific American, Sep 1999

sevenedges · Dec 16, 1999

i own a pinnacle and my sisters boyfriend owns a sebenza. while the general design may be the same, there is really no comparison in quality. the sebenza clearly the better product. it almost seems to degrade the benchmade name comparing the two. even if one costs $200 more than the other. the pinnacle does seem to be a good work knife. though, for some reason it's one of my hardest knives to sharpen. probably due to it's thickness.

Hugo · Dec 17, 1999

Griffon - you are wrong, at least what comes to Porsche (one of the examples). In general the European makers of luxyry goods might have hold back with production a while back. But I would not imagine that anyone can do that anymore. Or can afford, at least not to a great extent.

What comes to Porsche. They have been strugling to meed demand in the few last years. Of course they could say that "sorry can't make them faster", but instead they made a deal with Valmet Automotive in Uusikaupunki, Finland. They have been building Boxsters there for a couple of years now. Yes, we make Porsches here in Finland - you can have the Saabs

Anyways the point is that they can not afford to cut back production just to have a 'name'. I admit that there are a few car companies in Europe who seem the hold back on production to keep the prices high. But they are nowadays owned by some larger car-company (like Ferrari owned by Fiat) so they have the money behind them. Porsche is not owned by anybody else. They were close to selling out maybe in the beginning of 90's. But they managed to stay independent. Now they are doing very well indeed.

BTW, I also think that Sebenza truly is the Porsche of knives. May not be the fanciest out there - some don't like it's appearance - some do (I do!!). And of course, if you want extra, it's available. May also not be the fastest, but when you need performance it really is there. There are just a few cars can beat Porsche on track, but at the end of the hard track day you can still drive it home and next day to the work. And when you need endurance, performance that lasts, there is no better. Both are as reliable as can be (over 70% all Porsches build ever are still runnable!)

Hugo.

Griffon · Dec 17, 1999

Griffon - you are wrong, at least what comes to Porsche (one of the examples).

If you say so. But they still put quotas for different markets to keep the car exclusive into the mid-1990's, didn't they?

In general the European makers of luxyry goods might have hold back with production a while back. But I would not imagine that anyone can do that anymore.

Oh, yes, they do. Both production, but most importantly the number and kind of places the goods are sold. This is an important factor in keeping the price up, and as they aren't changing their methods, it seems to work.

Hugo · Dec 20, 1999

Griffon, of course they have quotas for different markets, but not to keep the car exclusive. They for sure can not afford not to sell cars... they don't have a large company behind feeding them money. The quotas for them are obviously because they still can not meet the demand. Boxster was much better seller than they thought. I guess they could have raised their prices, but they haven't. Here in Finland they are of course very high (we make them for you guys to buy

), but generally I think they are very well priced against their competition. They offer much more bang for the buck. And expanding the production outside Germany was a courageous step - they took some heat for that I'm sure (they organized a 'test' for members of the press to compare Boxsters made in Germany and Finland. The conclusion was that there is no difference - or if one looks really close... the ones made in Finland might be even a bit better.)

But the same might, and probably doesn't apply to other companies. Maybe you're right. In this current economic situation I would imagine that there is lot's of competition. But maybe the big names can still do that (yes, Porsche is definitely a big name, but they have not been in a situation to being able to do something like that.)

Hugo.

Griffon · Dec 21, 1999

Griffon, of course they have quotas for different markets, but not to keep the car exclusive. They for sure can not afford not to sell cars...

Think it through: If you keep the product exclusive, then you can charge price Y for a number X of sold items. It's not at all given you can still charge Y if you sell 1.5X, so perhaps you won't make more money unless you lower the price even more and sell several times as many items. So limiting sales numbers may not be tied into production capability.

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Urban Fredriksson
www.canit.se/%7Egriffon/

"Smooth and serrated blades cut in two entirely different fashions."
- The Teeth of the Tyrannosaurs, Scientific American, Sep 1999

Jackal · Dec 20, 1999

Forget all thsi Porsche talk, IMO, the large, plain Sebenza is the 2000 Ford F-650 Super-Duty Power Stroke 4X4 Off-Road.

-AR

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- AKTI Member ID# A000322

- Intelligent men, unfortunately, learn from fools, more often than fools learn from intelligent men.

Sebenza and Pinnacle-too similar?

TomW

UW Mitch

JoHnYKwSt

stjames

Sebenzanista

TomW

Chris Reeve Knives

Boise Moderator

UW Mitch

Griffon

sevenedges

Hugo

Griffon

Hugo

Griffon

Jackal